Cushing's Disease/Syndrome | Electronic Forum Digest 13

CUSHINGS-PETS Digest 13

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Lysodren
by EKAPLAN@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU
2) Re: Advanced Cushings
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
3) Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
4) Re: Advanced Cushings
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
5) Re: Diagnosis
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
6) Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
7) Cushing's FAQ
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
8) FWD from Randy re: W/D
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
9) Cushings Pets
by SheltyLove <SheltyLove@aol.com>
10) Re: Cushings Pets
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
11) Lysodren "Loading Phase"
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
12) Cushing's
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
13) Re: Advanced Cushings
by Katerpoo <Katerpoo@aol.com>
14) Re: Cushing's FAQ
by Katerpoo <Katerpoo@aol.com>
15) Re: Advanced Cushings
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
16) Holiday Wishes
by kathleen richards <krichard@acme.csusb.edu>
17) Ebony and Anipryl
by kathleen richards <krichard@acme.csusb.edu>
18) Cushing's Pets Digest...reprise
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
19) Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
by Smedes/Mason <76255.1470@compuserve.com>
20) Re: Advanced Cushings
by Smedes/Mason <76255.1470@compuserve.com>
21) Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
22) Cushing's
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
23) Lysodren
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
24) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by Glimpact <Glimpact@aol.com>
25) Re: Lysodren
by "scott" <scott@adams.net>
26) Re: Lysodren
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
27) Re: Lysodren
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
28) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
29) Re: Lysodren
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
30) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by HD Bliley <hbliley@erols.com>
31) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by Ruthann Peterson <rppete@execpc.com>
32) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
33) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
34) Re: Lysodren
by delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
35) Re: Lysodren
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
36) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by "scott" <scott@adams.net>
37) Re: Lysodren
by "scott" <scott@adams.net>
38) Re: Cushing's symptoms
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
39) Holistic vs. Conventional (Was: Re: Ebony and Anipryl)
by Jeri <kurvenal@ameritech.net>
40) Re: Lysodren
by Glimpact <Glimpact@aol.com>
41) Lysodren diatribe
by hilbro@juno.com (H Brown)
42) Re: Lysodren diatribe
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
43) Re: Ebony and Anipryl
by delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
44) Re: Holistic vs. Conventional (Was: Re: Ebony and Anipryl)
by delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
45) Re: Lysodren diatribe
by delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
46) Re: Lysodren diatribe
by Ruthann Peterson <rppete@execpc.com>
47) Holistic vs Conventional
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
48) re: Lysodren diatribe *LONG*
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
49) vitamin support?
by "scott" <scott@adams.net>
50) Terrible Ted
by "David ROBERTS" <d_one_delta@email.msn.com>
51) Re: vitamin support?
by Jeri <kurvenal@ameritech.net>
52) Anipryl
by HelenFW <HelenFW@aol.com>
53) re: Lysodren diatribe *LONG* (fwd from Wendy)
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
54) Re: Lysodren
by Smedes/Mason <76255.1470@compuserve.com>

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 09:16:00 ECT
From: EKAPLAN@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU
To: Cushings-Pets@mcfelley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Lysodren
Message-ID: <199712151442.IAA06759@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>

Linda-

I, too, was very concerned about the loading phase of Lysodren.
As was mentioned, it is important to have a vet you can rely on,
trust, and who will answer your questions thoughtfully.
My 9 yr. old. terrier was diagnosed last July. I was apprehensive
about the Lysodren loading phase, and called my vet a couple of times
during it, when questions came up.
Everything went well, & Duffy is now on a maintenance dose of
Lysodren which we've had to lower once, because he seems to require
less than normal, per a subsequent ATCH test.
However, on the whole, he is doing well--drinks much less
water & has grown back an enormous amount of hair. ACTH tests
indicate much better cortisol, etc. levels.
Ellen

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:59:56 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Advanced Cushings
Message-ID: <9712150900.ZM21521@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

What you should do is a topic for discussion with the vet. If the loading
phase is done properly and carefully, there's little actual risk to him.

I wouldn't call either the pronounced hair loss or the heavy drinking as
advanced Cushings. You may find that starting him on the Lysodren changes
things rather dramatically, for the better.

Just remeber, what you do you do out of love for him. Make your decsions based
on that.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:05:01 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
Message-ID: <9712150905.ZM21818@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Linda, you've listed the three choices I've known about. Ask your vet for any
suggestions. Alternatively, contact you closest vet school. They may even be
willing to bring him in for exam, etc (but be VERY specific on treatment
options).

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:16:34 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Advanced Cushings
Message-ID: <9712150916.ZM22473@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I asked our vet about the urine tests this weekend. Some vets are concerned
that there is concomitent kidney damage, and also test for this. They are also
interested in the concentrating abilities of the kidneys.

I think that one of the ACTH stim tests uses urine samples.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:33:31 -0600
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Diagnosis
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971215153331.006e41a4@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

How long did it take to get your baby comfortable with 500mg a week, we are
still trying. Jackie

At 08:41 PM 12/14/97 EST, you wrote:
>I have a Sheltie who was diagnosed with Cushings at age 3. His is caused by a
>tumor. He showed no symptons of the disease. I had a blood work-up done
>because I felt he wasn't as enthusiastic about his obedience training as he
>had been. Well, after a lot of time and money a vet suggested to check for
>Cushings, even though he felt it would be unlikely for such a young dog to
>have it. The test was positive. it took a very long to time to get his Lysdron
>dosage down to the current 500 mg per week. He is now 7-1/2 and doing very
>well. I had to end his show career, because he is unable to cope with any
>stress and does have some vision problems.
>
>I hope your dog can do as well as mine!
>
>Joanne Silhanek
>
>
Jacqueline P. Siniard
Staff Assistant, Graduate Studies
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Materials Science Building Room C206
Huntsville, Alabama 35899
ph: 205-890-6002 Fax:205-890-6349
e-mail: siniardj@email.uah.edu

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:41:44 -0600
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971215094144.0329db5c@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

FWD from Jeri <kurvenal@ameritech.net>:

>L Boyce wrote:
>> I am at a loss right now. My dog was diagnosed in May with Cushing's.
>> My Vet told me that he did not have a pituitary tumor or adrenal gland
>> tumor. The pituitary tumor was ruled out by a blood test and the
>> adrenal gland tumor was ruled out by two ultrasounds. What other causes
>> are there?
>>
>My parents' dog has the same situation. We were told that the diagnosis
>has to follow the ultrasound, so even though the blood tests said
>otherwise, they now say that she has pituitary-dependent Cushings,
>since no adrenal tumors could be found. The other possibility,
>though, is that we just caught it so early that no tumor was
>seen on the ultrasound yet. It's possible, though unlikely
>from what they saw on the ultrasound, that both adrenal glands
>looked the same because there is a tumor in both glands.
>Jeri kurvenal@ameritech.net
>

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:46:20 -0600
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Cushing's FAQ
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971215094620.006d690c@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:36 AM 12/13/97 EST, Katerpoo wrote:
>Where is the Cushing's FAQ? TIA.

Well, it's *supposed* to be located at
<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/>
but, I haven't yet compiled it (although it's my New Year's Resolution to
do so). Any suggestions for the FAQ are most welcome!

-Leslie

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:57:11 -0600
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: FWD from Randy re: W/D
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971215095711.031cf57c@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Subject: Re: Randy-Why W/D?
>
>
> We feed Sunny W/D because the vet recommended it, because she is a
> borderline diabetic and it is also something which is "supposed" to
> help her loose weight. It maybe helping her not gain weight quite as
> fast as she was, but she "definitely" has not lost weight.
>
> Randy
>

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:39:52 EST
From: SheltyLove <SheltyLove@aol.com>
To: Cushings-Pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Cushings Pets
Message-ID: <38b6f269.34956b6a@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Is there a way to receive this in digest form? instead of individual email
posts?

Thanks..
Lori

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:14:28 -0600
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Cushings Pets
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971215121428.031f00bc@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lori and others:

The DIGEST format allows you to receive just one posting of all the
listserv messages per digest cycle (currently set to once weekly, compiled
each Monday) rather than individual messages as they are processed.

There are two ways to see Cushings-Pets messages in digest form:

1) Send an email that reads "SET CUSHINGS-PETS DIGEST" to
<listproc@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>.

2) Look on the web page:
<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/digests/digests.html>
I try to update these once a week, but often I'm not so diligent.

I highly recommend option #1 since, as I said, often I get behind on
posting the digests to the web site.

Any questions about digests or other listserv matters can be sent directly
to me at <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

-Leslie
Cushings-Pets Electronic Forum and Web Page Moderator
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/

At 12:39 PM 12/15/97 EST, SheltyLove wrote:
>Is there a way to receive this in digest form? instead of individual email
>posts?

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:33:33 -0400
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: "Cushing's e-mail" <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Lysodren "Loading Phase"
Message-ID: <3495B03D.5A51C4BE@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ellen....

Thanks so much for your response. We had a Vet appointment today and
had a blood test done to be sure everything is "normal" before starting
the Lysodren on Friday. Needless to say I didn't hold up well on the
office visit but I came home and found your message and found some
relief in your message. I have full confidence in my Vet, in fact, he
told me that he would be on his beeper this weekend if needed.

I guess I just put too much hope in the Anipryl as my dog tolerated it
so well but it did nothing for him. I can't wait to see his hair come
back in and I just can't imagine him drinking less water as ever since
he's been a puppy he's always drank so much water. I always thought it
was normal.

Again...thanks!

Linda

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:57:26 -0400
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: "Cushing's e-mail" <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Cushing's
Message-ID: <3495B5D6.AA9119B6@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I would just like to say thank you to all of you who have been so
extremely helpful to me. Words cannot express the peace of mind I have
gotten from everyone here. The information passed on here has taught me
so much.

Thanx Again!

Linda

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:40:37 EST
From: Katerpoo <Katerpoo@aol.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Advanced Cushings
Message-ID: <b4466d96.3495ce15@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-15 14:49:46 EST, you write:

<>

Nope, that test is a pre-ACTH blood sample is taken, then ACTH is administered
to the dog and, 1-2 hours later, a post-ACTH blood sample is drawn.

Chris

Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:38:09 EST
From: Katerpoo <Katerpoo@aol.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Cushing's FAQ
Message-ID: <b2583314.3495cd82@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 97-12-15 11:03:01 EST, you write:

<< Well, it's *supposed* to be located at
<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/>
but, I haven't yet compiled it (although it's my New Year's Resolution to
do so). Any suggestions for the FAQ are most welcome! >>

Thanks!

Chris

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:57 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Advanced Cushings
Message-ID: <9712160846.ZM22703@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 15, 7:40pm, Katerpoo wrote:
> Subject: Re: Advanced Cushings
> In a message dated 97-12-15 14:49:46 EST, you write:
>
> <>
>
> Nope, that test is a pre-ACTH blood sample is taken, then ACTH is
administered
> to the dog and, 1-2 hours later, a post-ACTH blood sample is drawn.
>
> Chris
>-- End of excerpt from Katerpoo

You're right. It's the dexamethasone suppression test that sometimes uses
urine. But the evil people at the hospital thought it would be better if they
drew blood every hour for a day, just to see how many good veins I had, I
guess.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:19:32 -0800 (PST)
From: kathleen richards <krichard@acme.csusb.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Holiday Wishes
Message-ID: <199712161719.JAA21931@acme.csusb.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I would like to wish everyone and their pets the best holidays possible!
May the New Year bring better health and lots of good things to all -
canine, feline and human!
--
>--------------------------------------------<
~Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!~ -dire straits
kathleen richards -- krichard@acme.csusb.edu or kilty@tstonramp.com

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:40:53 -0800 (PST)
From: kathleen richards <krichard@acme.csusb.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <199712161740.JAA22265@acme.csusb.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Well, Ebony is still on Anipryl (5 mg) and seems to be holding her own. She
drinks less water overall, doesn't get me up to let her out 3 times a night
anymore (ahh, blessed sleep! - that is, until we tried Lasix this week for
her lungs... ~yawn~ Lasix is a diuretic (sp?)). She still has not grown
her hair back in. The vet says not to expect that for 3-4 months, so I
guess I am jumping the gun. I got a big lecture this Saturday on how human
hair grows continually throughout our lifetimes and canine hair goes through
periods of growth and "rest" and periods of losing a lot of hair (this
corresponds to putting on and losing a winter coat, even in dogs who don't
put on much of a winter coat).

We were trying to split 10 mg Anipryl tablets for a brief while. Hah They
are unscored, very hard, five pointed stars! Guess which manufacturer
doesn't *want* you to save money by buying a larger size and splitting...
~grumble~ So we went back to fives. However, there were days when Ebony
seemed a bit better during the period when we were splitting tens, so the
hypothesis is that her "correct" doage is somewhere *between* 5 and 10
(because the tens didn't split well, she was not getting a consistent dosage
on them and sometimes got below five and sometimes above). We will be
trying her on 7 mg a day soon (one 5 mg tablet plus one 2 mg tablet daily).
That will, of course, cost me $77 x 2 per thirty days. :( There is a human
equivalent of this medication that is cheaper ($50 for 30 5 mg) however, and
we are working with a pharmacist and the vet to maybe start using that.

We probably do not have the option of trying Lysodren. Ebony is old and on
so many other medications, and is so small, the vet feels there is no 'safe'
way to do Lysodren with her. She is taking phenobarbital, levothyroxine
(thyroid med.), theodur, and right now, lasix and antirobe (antibiotic).
For her, low level Cushings disease is better than what could occur if the
Lysodren was too high or caused problems. I do not elieve she is in pain or
suffering because of the Cushings right now. There are days, in fact, when
she plays again! Even so, with her lung problems and the fact that the vet
just discovered the beginnings of heart disease we will be continuing to pin
our hopes on Anipryl. At the very least, it is difficult to do any damage
to her system with Anipryl (as opposed to Lysodren). Sadly, I am being
forced to recognize more and more that she *is* old and there are "old dog"
problems occurring as well. She has been part of my life for so long that
it's hard to think of that! Right now I am just focusing on spending time
with her and letting her know how much I love her (even when she wants to go
outside at 3 am and 45 degrees!!!).

--
>--------------------------------------------<
~Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!~ -dire straits
kathleen richards -- krichard@acme.csusb.edu or kilty@tstonramp.com

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:07:21 -0600
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Cushing's Pets Digest...reprise
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971216140721.006e1adc@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lori and others:

I flubbed in my previous message about setting your subscription to digest.
Option 1 should have read:

1) Send an email that reads "SET CUSHINGS-PETS MAIL DIGEST" to
<listproc@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>.

Again, any questions about digests or other listserv matters can be sent
directly to me at <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>

-Leslie
Cushings-Pets Electronic Forum and Web Page Moderator
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:36:42 -0500
From: Smedes/Mason <76255.1470@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
Message-ID: <199712170137_MC2-2C46-B66A@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ultrasound is a wonderful tool. When used properly, it can "see" many
things that would otherwise have required exploratory surgery. It has
literally revolutionized diagnostic imaging, and is becoming more and more
affordable for veterinary patients.

The downside of ultrasound is that is is very "operator dependent". The
quality of the image is dependent upon the quality (and cost) of the
machine, and the experience of the operator. The interpretation of the
image is solely dependent on the experience, and competance, of the
operator.

I am a board-certified specialist in small animal internal medicine, and I
perform ultrasound exams every day, and have for many years. I know how
difficult it can be to image the adrenal glands. A positive finding (i.e.,
2 equal but enlarged adrenal glands indicated pituitary-dependent disease,
or 1 very large and one small and shrunken gland indicate an adrenal
tumour) is very believable. Negative findings ("could not find an enlarged
gland"), are useless. Neutral findings (imaging both glands, and measuring
within normal limits) does not support Cushing's, but is not strong enough
evidence to rule it out..... especially if the ACTH stimulation test or the
dexamethasone suppression test were diagnostic for the presence of
Cyushing's before the ultrasound was performed.

If the blood tests rule out pituitary disease, and ultrasound rules out
adrenal disease, what is the basis for the diagnosis of Cushing's? The
fact would be either;
i) the dog has either pituitary or adrenal disease causing the Cushing's,
or,
ii) the dog does not have Cushing's

If the ultrasound cannot distinguish, there are other tests that can be
used to separate pituitary from adrenal disease. These include blood tests
(high dose dexamethasone suppression tests,or measuring the dogs own ACTH
level - this is different from an ACTH stimulation test), and other imaging
modalities (MRI of the brain to look at the pituitary, CAT scans of the
abdomen to look at the adrenals).

Many cases of Cushing's are straight-forward and uncomplicated, and your
family veterinarian can do a great job with them. For any case that does
not follow "text book" results on the blood tests or treatments, however,
you may want to seek the advice of a specialist. If any of you were
diagnosed with Cushing's disease, I guarantee your GP would refer you to an
endinocrinologist immediately. There are lots of internists in private
practice, so it does not mean if you don't live near a Vet school that you
can't get specialist advice. Ask your veterinarian to refer you or to at
least call a specialist for some help if the case is not straight-forward.

I hope this helps.

Dr. R.A. Mason, BSc, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ABVP, Diplomate ACVIM

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:36:35 -0500
From: Smedes/Mason <76255.1470@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Advanced Cushings
Message-ID: <199712170137_MC2-2C46-B665@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Actually, the urine test (a urine cortisol:creatinine ratio, or UCCR) is a
screening test for Cushing's. That means a negative test is very good at
ruling out the disease, but a positive test cannot diagnose it. Other
tests (the ACTH stimulation or the dexamethasone suppression tests) are
used to diagnose Cushing's. Depending on the actual results, many times a
third "wave" of tests is necessary to distinguish the pituitary from the
adrenal form (high dose dexamethasone suppression, an ACTH level, or
abdominal ultrasound).

People were interested in the post-dexamethasone UCCR, as it would be great
if we didn't have to "see how many veins were left" by drawing multiple
blood samples. Unfortunately, recent studies have showed this to be an
unreliable way to monitor response to therapy.

During treatment, sometimes urine samples are collected for culture, as
bacterial infections are very common in the Cushingoid patient.

I am a huge fan of the UCCR, but for now, it is mainly a screening test,
used to sort out who needs further tests for Cushing's.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Dr. R.A. Mason, BSc, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ABVP, Diplomate ACVIM

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:15:59 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Cushing's Diagnosis
Message-ID: <9712170915.ZM24758@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Thank you for the insight, Dr. Mason.

Our GP is both one of the two area endocrinologists and Austin's geriatic
specialist. So Ivan has been a very lucky boy in that his "regular" vet is
also his specialist. In addition, the ultrasound vet (we never even bothered
with the adrenals) has, as you put it, shown that special skill that we believe
saved his life two years ago.

Thank you for your contributions.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:30:56 -0400
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: "Cushing's e-mail" <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Cushing's
Message-ID: <349852A0.1B932753@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dr. Mason....

Thank you very much for taking the time to pass on your valuable
information. It really put my mind at ease and I have full confidence
in the procedures my Vet is following. This all has been so confusing
for me and I want to do everything I can for my dog and your information
eased my mind greatly....

Linda

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:32:42 -0400
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: "Cushing's e-mail" <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Lysodren
Message-ID: <3498530A.C105B33A@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Can anyone suggest the "best" time to give Lysodren? My dog will start
his loading phase this Friday and I'm not sure when is the best time to
give it to him...before meals...after...or with meals. I asked my Vet
and he said it didn't matter.

Linda

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:28:34 EST
From: Glimpact <Glimpact@aol.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <68a658b.34970ea7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Be happy that you're not using lysodren. I lost my Clarisse while she was on
the toxic medicine. I learned after her death that it is a chemical relative
of the pesticide DDT. Holistic vets believe that it shut down her immune
system and eventually killed her.

Laura

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:55:16 -0600
From: "scott" <scott@adams.net>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <199712180106.TAA04496@golden.adams.net>
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we just finished Jake's loading phase 2 weeks ago, he went through with out
hitch only effect was a loss of appetite last 3 days..
we gave lysodryn 3 times a day [separated by 6 hours] "hidden" in his
food.

good luck
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">we just finished Jake's loading =
phase 2 weeks ago, he went through with out hitch only effect was a loss =
of appetite last 3 days.. we gave lysodryn 3 times  a day =
[separated by 6 hours]   "hidden"  in his =
food. good luck
</body></html>
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:07:13 -0600
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971218140713.006d13bc@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Linda, I give my baby hers in the morning and at night, my vet suggested
splitting up the dosage because it tends to give the baby gas, I give it
with a bit of her food on a spoon and she takes it like a treat, then I feed
her her normal breakfast, hope this helps. Jackie

At 06:32 PM 12/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Can anyone suggest the "best" time to give Lysodren? My dog will start
>his loading phase this Friday and I'm not sure when is the best time to
>give it to him...before meals...after...or with meals. I asked my Vet
>and he said it didn't matter.
>
>Linda
>
>
>
Jacqueline P. Siniard
Staff Assistant, Graduate Studies
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Materials Science Building Room C206
Huntsville, Alabama 35899
ph: 205-890-6002 Fax:205-890-6349
e-mail: siniardj@email.uah.edu

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:14:29 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <9712180914.ZM25325@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

We were told the same thing. Ivan gets his in the evening, about 20-30 minutes
after "dinner". I think the food helps buffer the Lysodren a little, as he has
had no apparent gastric upset, which I've others report on occasion.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:25:55 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <9712180925.ZM25829@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 16, 6:28pm, Glimpact wrote:
> Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
> Be happy that you're not using lysodren. I lost my Clarisse while she was on
> the toxic medicine. I learned after her death that it is a chemical relative
> of the pesticide DDT. Holistic vets believe that it shut down her immune
> system and eventually killed her.
>
> Laura
>-- End of excerpt from Glimpact

And tomatos are closely related to Deadly Nightshade. Holistic vets and
conventional vets (like human doctors) have a serious grudge against each
other.

I've tried to keep quite about this, but your crusade against Lysodren has gone
over the top. The recommendations you have made (without the benefit of
veterinary training, I assume) do not seem to indicate anything other than
symptomatic relief, with no real regulation of the underlying condition. This
is like taking cough medicine for pneumonia.

Both Lysodren and Anipryl have undergone rigorous clinical studies. I have yet
to see the same for holistic treatments.

Sorry if I seem soapboxish, but after three years, I don't think Ivan's been
"poisoned".

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:44:05 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <9712180944.ZM26662@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Good to hear about Jake. Where did his ACTH stim results come out?

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:19:41 -0500
From: HD Bliley <hbliley@erols.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <34995B2C.FE957EA@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

don't be too hasty to "dis" Laure regarding her opinions of Lysodren vs
holistic--study up on Flaxseed oil and its thereputic properties and see what you
think.
Many medications, anitbiotics, etc, have the effect of hampering the immune system
and possibly placing too much stress on the system--so relying on natural remedies
is not all bad. Stop and think about what causes the propblemin the first
place--probably bad food and environment--and take steps to correct the problem.
No, I am not a doctor or a vet, but I have had good results with regemins that
involve "natural/herbal" products--my pooch was diagnoised last March with PD
Cushings--I have her on Solid Gold food, fresh veggies, brown rice, sea minerals,
flaxseed oil, Vit b50 complex, ester-C, and Willard Water--to date she is holding
her own, and I will go to any lenghts to keep poision out of her system.

Good luck to all, Henry Bliley

Dillon Pyron wrote:

> On Dec 16, 6:28pm, Glimpact wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
> > Be happy that you're not using lysodren. I lost my Clarisse while she was on
> > the toxic medicine. I learned after her death that it is a chemical relative
> > of the pesticide DDT. Holistic vets believe that it shut down her immune
> > system and eventually killed her.
> >
> > Laura
> >-- End of excerpt from Glimpact
>
> And tomatos are closely related to Deadly Nightshade. Holistic vets and
> conventional vets (like human doctors) have a serious grudge against each
> other.
>
> I've tried to keep quite about this, but your crusade against Lysodren has gone
> over the top. The recommendations you have made (without the benefit of
> veterinary training, I assume) do not seem to indicate anything other than
> symptomatic relief, with no real regulation of the underlying condition. This
> is like taking cough medicine for pneumonia.
>
> Both Lysodren and Anipryl have undergone rigorous clinical studies. I have yet
> to see the same for holistic treatments.
>
> Sorry if I seem soapboxish, but after three years, I don't think Ivan's been
> "poisoned".
>
> --
> dillon pyron
> dillon.pyron@amd.com
> PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
> Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:00:50 -0600
From: Ruthann Peterson <rppete@execpc.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <349980F2.48C00BE2@execpc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thak you Dillon, it needed saying. -- Ruthann

Dillon Pyron wrote:

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:03:21 -0500
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <v01540b03b0bf37cbb119@[128.230.1.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I haven't been reading my mail lately (busy with doctoral exams) but I came
across this today, and have to add that, while the toxicity of the drug is
not to be taken lightly, I am certain that my own dog owes both his life
and his continued relative health to it. He was in miserable shape when he
was (finally) diagnosed with Cushing's about three years ago. He's eleven
now, and quite happy and healthy. We've loaded three or four times, his
dose never remains stable for long (mostly up, but sometimes down), and we
are always evaluating. It isn't easy. And sometimes my instincts are more
useful than the ACTH tests. But, for all its dangers and difficulties, it
is the difference between a miserable dying (by now dead) dog and a
healthy happy one. Just remember that YOU are the final arbiter. Don't give
more of the stuff than you feel comfortable giving, no matter what the
numbers say. I know I overloaded my dog the first time, because I was
trusting the literature. Experience has taught me to listen to own
judgment. A good vet (like mine) will encourage that.

Good luck and good health to all of you and your pets,

del

At 6:28 PM 12/16/97, Glimpact wrote:
>Be happy that you're not using lysodren. I lost my Clarisse while she was on
>the toxic medicine. I learned after her death that it is a chemical relative
>of the pesticide DDT. Holistic vets believe that it shut down her immune
>system and eventually killed her.
>
>Laura

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:04:05 -0500
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <v01540b06b0bf3ea64d79@[128.230.1.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Here I am again (with a general response to the thread--not to Dillon
specifically). I am a strong believer in research and making informed
decisions (as opposed to blindly taking expert advice). I think that
holistic care is extremely valuable for many ailments (human and canine),
and I would always choose the least disruptive treatment first. But there
are diseases like Cushing's that require drastic measures. The bottom line
is that for many dogs (not all), the negative effects of lysodren are less
damaging than the effects of the untreated Cushing's.

del

At 9:25 AM 12/18/97, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>On Dec 16, 6:28pm, Glimpact wrote:
>> Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
>> Be happy that you're not using lysodren. I lost my Clarisse while she was on
>> the toxic medicine. I learned after her death that it is a chemical relative
>> of the pesticide DDT. Holistic vets believe that it shut down her immune
>> system and eventually killed her.
>>
>> Laura
>>-- End of excerpt from Glimpact
>
>And tomatos are closely related to Deadly Nightshade. Holistic vets and
>conventional vets (like human doctors) have a serious grudge against each
>other.
>
>I've tried to keep quite about this, but your crusade against Lysodren has gone
>over the top. The recommendations you have made (without the benefit of
>veterinary training, I assume) do not seem to indicate anything other than
>symptomatic relief, with no real regulation of the underlying condition. This
>is like taking cough medicine for pneumonia.
>
>Both Lysodren and Anipryl have undergone rigorous clinical studies. I have yet
>to see the same for holistic treatments.
>
>Sorry if I seem soapboxish, but after three years, I don't think Ivan's been
>"poisoned".
>
>
>--
>dillon pyron
>dillon.pyron@amd.com
>PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
>Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:06:22 -0500
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <v01540b07b0bf407bbb9d@[128.230.1.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Would you believe that Willie actually stands at the cupboard and begs for
his pills on "pill-day"? I think he feels special that he gets something my
other dog does not.

del

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:06:24 -0600
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <9712181506.ZM10970@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 18, 4:06pm, Del Lausa wrote:
> Subject: Re: Lysodren
> Would you believe that Willie actually stands at the cupboard and begs for
> his pills on "pill-day"? I think he feels special that he gets something my
> other dog does not.
>
> del
>
>
>-- End of excerpt from Del Lausa

Ivan gets his wrapped in a bit of tortilla, with some peanut butter. So, of
course, the Bonster has to have some, too (the tortilla and peanut butter).
Now, to get her in the house at night, I have have to do is say "meds" and
here she comes!!

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
Extradite Ira Einhorn.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:25:15 -0600
From: "scott" <scott@adams.net>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <199712182125.PAA02510@golden.adams.net>
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Please explain why you would '"reload", did you with hold dosage for an
extended period..
----------
> From: Del Lausa <delausa@mailbox.syr.edu>
> To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
> Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
> Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
> Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 3:03 PM
>
>
>
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">Please explain why you would =
'"reload", did you with hold dosage for an extended =
period.. ---------- > From: Del Lausa =
<delausa@mailbox.syr.edu> > To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu > Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu > Subject: Re:  Ebony and Anipryl > =
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 3:03 PM > > >
</body></html>
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:33:38 -0600
From: "scott" <scott@adams.net>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <199712182136.PAA04174@golden.adams.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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To be honest I did not question vet on exact numbers, she reported that he
responded very well... water intake , energy level and disposition all
vastly improved.

only problem is now getting maintenance dose exactly right... just went
through a prednesone dosage, Jake started to get a little lazy and appetite
went down, but he snapped right out of it... [ we caught early] will adjust
Lysodren down about 10%

----------
> From: Dillon Pyron <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
> To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
> Subject: Re: Lysodren
> Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 9:44 AM
>
> Good to hear about Jake. Where did his ACTH stim results come out?
>
>
> --
> dillon pyron
> dillon.pyron@amd.com
> PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
> Extradite Ira Einhorn.
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">To be honest I did not question vet on =
exact numbers, she reported that he responded very well...  water =
intake , energy level and disposition all vastly improved. only =
problem is now getting maintenance dose exactly right... just went =
through a prednesone dosage, Jake started to get a little lazy and =
appetite went down, but he snapped right out of it... [ we caught early] =
will adjust Lysodren down about 10% ---------- > From: Dillon Pyron <dillon.pyron@amd.com> > To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu > Subject: Re: Lysodren > Date: Thursday, =
December 18, 1997 9:44 AM > > Good to hear about Jake. =
 Where did his ACTH stim results come out? > > =
 > -- > dillon pyron > dillon.pyron@amd.com > PADI OWSI-54909    USPSA =
TY-26031 > Extradite Ira Einhorn.
</body></html>
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:13:09 -0600
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Cushing's symptoms
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971218221309.00707ee4@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, finals have just finished.
Sunny is due another ACTH stim test on 5 January, Auburn has closed for now
and they do not like to keep blood. No there is no vet school here in
Huntsville or B'ham, Auburn is who we are going thru, but I am considereing
going to UT, they were wonderful with my other baby when she had heart
problems, expensive, but who cares when it comes to our children. Jackie.

At 10:27 AM 12/11/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Dec 11, 9:58am, Jackie Siniard wrote:
>> Subject: Re: Cushing's symptoms
>> These signs have not changed at all with Sunny, she is on 3/4 Lysodren Sat
>> and Tues, we have now been dealing with this for 8 months, no change.
>
>This is not good news. Has your vet done another ACTH stim test? This is the
>best measure of the efficacy of the drugs. Sometimes a second, or even third,
>loading period is needed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Huntsville have
>a vet school (or is that B'ham?). Lysodren dosing is still somewhat of an art,
>rather than an exact science. Our vet admits that every change is a guess, and
>we watch for symptoms and signs.
>
>
>
>
>--
>dillon pyron
>dillon.pyron@amd.com
>PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031
>Extradite Ira Einhorn.
>
>
Jacqueline P. Siniard
Staff Assistant, Graduate Studies
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Materials Science Building Room C206
Huntsville, Alabama 35899
ph: 205-890-6002 Fax:205-890-6349
e-mail: siniardj@email.uah.edu

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:09:11 -0800
From: Jeri <kurvenal@ameritech.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Holistic vs. Conventional (Was: Re: Ebony and Anipryl)
Message-ID: <3499D747.372C@ameritech.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> > And tomatos are closely related to Deadly Nightshade. Holistic vets and
> > conventional vets (like human doctors) have a serious grudge against each
> > other.

While that might be true for some vets, there are many holistic
and conventional vets who will work with one another.
My dogs see both vets, as appropriate, and the vets confer
with one another, and will suggest that I go see the other
vet for treatment of a particular problem, if needed.
I feel comfortable in the idea that my dogs are getting
the best of both worlds. There are times that conventional
medicine is the only route to take, but there are many
times that, if the vets will confer with one another,
combining both approaches can provide greater benefit.
There is good and bad in both worlds. We have to find
what is best for our own individual dogs, and follow an
approach that we're comfortble with.

> Both Lysodren and Anipryl have undergone rigorous clinical studies. I have yet
> to see the same for holistic treatments.

While I can't say that I know of any studies on any alternative approach
to treating Cushings, I can say that there is a great deal of
research that has been done on using *some* alternative approaches for
*some* ailments. Sometimes the alternative approach even has something
to offer when the conventional approach has nothing left to offer.
That's not true of Cushings, even though at this point,
we're just using alternative approaches--with the total agreement
of our conventional vet. And, so far, about 1 1/2 years after
being diagnosed with Cushings, my dog remains symptom-free.
(And a 2nd dog remains symptom-free 7 months after diagnosis.)
When it becomes appropriate, however, the conventional vet
will work with the holistic vet to add in the use of conventional
treatments for my dogs. At this point, however, the conventional
vet has recommended that we don't use Lysodren or Anipryl.
Jeri kurvenal@ameritech.net

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:10:59 EST
From: Glimpact <Glimpact@aol.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <ad1c756.3499c9a6@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I'm really sorry that some Cushing's dog owners don't believe that lysodren
also known as mitotane OP -DDD is not a toxic chemical. I would suggest that
you please go the library and seek the Veterniary Drug Handbook. Also perform
an Internet search and you will see that it is quoted as "Mitotane, also
commonly known in veterinary medicine as op -DDD and lysodren, is structurally
related to the infamous insecticide chlorophenothane (DDT). It is considered
to be an adrenal cytotoxic (cancer) agent. It has been demonstrated to cause
severe, progressive necrosis of the zona fasiculata and zona reticularis)".

What I am trying to convey to people is that you might want to ALSO look for
ways to naturally strengthen your dog's immune system since the cancerous
medicine lysodren is taxing many major organs and the blood cells. This
subject was also highlighted in many books that I've read since March. I
spend about 2 hours each night after work reading health and dog books, and
data on the Internet, looking up health info.

My 2 vets never told me that lysodren was chemotherapy and we blindly believed
that Clarisse just had an overproduction of adrenaline. We never researched
Cushing's or thought that it was a life-threatening disease. We had her blood
tested every 5 or 6 weeks and our vets never said that specific categories
(especially the red and white blood cells) were out-of-normal range.

When she went into a crisis, I spent hundreds of hours researching Cushing's,
the immune system, the pituitary glands and other health and medical books
trying to understand how the dog's body works and how an immune system can
shut itself down. I now know how to read blood reports (not like a vet, but
at least enough to know if something appears out of range).

My new cocker is getting fruits, vegetables and other items that her body
specifically needs per the superchem blood test that the holistic vet
performed. We had many blood tests done on Clarisse and no one ever suggested
a superchem instead of a CBC (complete blood count), which shows the condition
of other organs that might be affected by oncoming or existing disease.

I'm also NOT saying that Cushing's dogs don't need medicine as, yes, someone
mentioned, the untreated Cushing's dog will also go into a life-threatening
crisis. I'm saying that I personally have spent MANY hours while Clarisse
was in crisis and even until this this day and the next trying to understand
the physiology and options with this life-threatening disease. I'm also
trying to give the information that I've so tragically learned to others.

Holistic medicine has PERSONALLY shown a definite benefit to my new cocker
Honey, as I've had three superchem blood tests and 2 nutritional analysis
performed on her over the past 6 months. The numbers are significantly higher
for her hypothyroidism health problem; her coat is beautiful as compared to
the flat, patchless one when I adopted her; and her energy level is
tremendous.

I truly hope that others can benefit from what I've seen with my own eyes.
A dog's immune system is VERY important.

Laura

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:42:57 EST
From: hilbro@juno.com (H Brown)
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Lysodren diatribe
Message-ID: <19971219.024135.9983.0.hilbro@juno.com>

Hi and Greetings of the Season,

I've been signed on to this list for several months -- content to just
listen and keep a finger on the pulse of similarly-focused pet owners.
Certainly the very fact that we are all gathered here confirms the love
and responsibility we feel for the precious animals entrusted to us. To
that end, I feel compelled to respond to the repeated postings of Laura
regarding her opinion about Lysodren administration for Cushings.

Perhaps before posting to the list, one should consider the dedication
and commitment of our fellow pet-parents and avoid spouting any
categorical agendas that might cause pain to anyone. I am concerned that
such presentations may only confuse and sadden those who are most in need
of good information and kind support.

I am a former med student, vet tech, retriever breeder,
trainer/behaviorist, and very active rescue/rehabber, as well as
typically busy wife/mom/writer -- a med/vet education writer, the paying
job that supports my lifelong animal habit! I've been around the block
more than a few times with most of the diseases and conditions that
assail our beloved charges. If I've learned one thing, it's that
sensible treatment protocols require a grounding in solid science
combined with a dash of experienced intuition -- not the other way
around.

Laura, it is evident that the loss of your dog Clarisse was devastating
for you as these losses have been for so many of us time and time again.
I share my life with a number of furry blessings representing several
species. When, just as an example, my wonderful little doxie-mix rescue
buddy Monroe eventually leaves us, perhaps from the effects of his
longstanding Cushings, I'll grieve deeply as always. But at age 14, and
the last five years on a Lysodren protocol, he's still bouncing around
like a goofball and having a good old time. Please don't spoil it by
bombarding me with accusations that I'm killing him with the very
treatment I have responsibly researched and decided on as the best course
to maintain his wonderful life. Don't make me the victim of a
controversy between some allopaths and some naturopaths. Don't base your
entire learning on one personal experience with one individual animal.

What of some dedicated pet owners who may be less "educated" than others
and who may be frightened, even guilt-tripped, by your unequivocal and
emotional soapbox? Is that the way you'd want to be treated in your
attempt to broaden your knowledge on behalf of the animals you love?

The word "chemotherapy" that you so vilify means treatment with chemical
substances. Indeed, the distinction between "natural" substances and
others is moot. Arsenic and toadstools are "all natural" but I do not
feed them to my dogs. Hurling the word chemotherapy around as if it were
a synonym for "intentional poisoning" is an irresponsible and
syntactically wrong move on your part. Boatloads of random facts and
allegations do not compensate for the misunderstanding and
misrepresentation of basic concepts.

Most of my animals, including my little Lysodren boy, are on responsibly
designed regimens of supplemental nutrients, vitamins, and
immunostimulants. I am a proponent of these applications and, like you,
I would urge others to educate themselves to these apparently worthwhile
chemotherapeutic options. Unlike you, however, I would never presume to
arbitrarily announce to a whole gathering of anonymous
information-seekers that Lysodren, and the vets who prescribed it, killed
my dog.

When your cytologies are completed, your controls have been evaluated,
the factual data of your consultants has been objectively organized, and
your understandably emotional conclusions have been centrifuged from
fact, you will then be in a position to formally educate on this topic.
In the meantime, your diligence is noteworthy and your concern is
admirable, but you unfortunately defeat your well-meaning intentions by
haphazardly inciting guilt and worry in those you claim to be educating.
In education, generosity of spirit is as essential as reliability of
data. People join these lists for responsible information and sensitive
support. On behalf of our wordless and perfect pets, let's remain
committed to both of these values.

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:27:16 -0600
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren diatribe
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971219162716.006ebb94@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Seasons greeting to everyone and every baby out there, thank you for this
message, it has helped alot, I was concerned with what Lauara had written,
Sunny thanks you as well.

At 01:42 AM 12/19/97 EST, you wrote:
>Hi and Greetings of the Season,
>
>I've been signed on to this list for several months -- content to just
>listen and keep a finger on the pulse of similarly-focused pet owners.
>Certainly the very fact that we are all gathered here confirms the love
>and responsibility we feel for the precious animals entrusted to us. To
>that end, I feel compelled to respond to the repeated postings of Laura
>regarding her opinion about Lysodren administration for Cushings.
>
>Perhaps before posting to the list, one should consider the dedication
>and commitment of our fellow pet-parents and avoid spouting any
>categorical agendas that might cause pain to anyone. I am concerned that
>such presentations may only confuse and sadden those who are most in need
>of good information and kind support.
>
>I am a former med student, vet tech, retriever breeder,
>trainer/behaviorist, and very active rescue/rehabber, as well as
>typically busy wife/mom/writer -- a med/vet education writer, the paying
>job that supports my lifelong animal habit! I've been around the block
>more than a few times with most of the diseases and conditions that
>assail our beloved charges. If I've learned one thing, it's that
>sensible treatment protocols require a grounding in solid science
>combined with a dash of experienced intuition -- not the other way
>around.
>
>Laura, it is evident that the loss of your dog Clarisse was devastating
>for you as these losses have been for so many of us time and time again.
>I share my life with a number of furry blessings representing several
>species. When, just as an example, my wonderful little doxie-mix rescue
>buddy Monroe eventually leaves us, perhaps from the effects of his
>longstanding Cushings, I'll grieve deeply as always. But at age 14, and
>the last five years on a Lysodren protocol, he's still bouncing around
>like a goofball and having a good old time. Please don't spoil it by
>bombarding me with accusations that I'm killing him with the very
>treatment I have responsibly researched and decided on as the best course
>to maintain his wonderful life. Don't make me the victim of a
>controversy between some allopaths and some naturopaths. Don't base your
>entire learning on one personal experience with one individual animal.
>
>What of some dedicated pet owners who may be less "educated" than others
>and who may be frightened, even guilt-tripped, by your unequivocal and
>emotional soapbox? Is that the way you'd want to be treated in your
>attempt to broaden your knowledge on behalf of the animals you love?
>
>The word "chemotherapy" that you so vilify means treatment with chemical
>substances. Indeed, the distinction between "natural" substances and
>others is moot. Arsenic and toadstools are "all natural" but I do not
>feed them to my dogs. Hurling the word chemotherapy around as if it were
>a synonym for "intentional poisoning" is an irresponsible and
>syntactically wrong move on your part. Boatloads of random facts and
>allegations do not compensate for the misunderstanding and
>misrepresentation of basic concepts.
>
>Most of my animals, including my little Lysodren boy, are on responsibly
>designed regimens of supplemental nutrients, vitamins, and
>immunostimulants. I am a proponent of these applications and, like you,
>I would urge others to educate themselves to these apparently worthwhile
>chemotherapeutic options. Unlike you, however, I would never presume to
>arbitrarily announce to a whole gathering of anonymous
>information-seekers that Lysodren, and the vets who prescribed it, killed
>my dog.
>
>When your cytologies are completed, your controls have been evaluated,
>the factual data of your consultants has been objectively organized, and
>your understandably emotional conclusions have been centrifuged from
>fact, you will then be in a position to formally educate on this topic.
>In the meantime, your diligence is noteworthy and your concern is
>admirable, but you unfortunately defeat your well-meaning intentions by
>haphazardly inciting guilt and worry in those you claim to be educating.
>In education, generosity of spirit is as essential as reliability of
>data. People join these lists for responsible information and sensitive
>support. On behalf of our wordless and perfect pets, let's remain
>committed to both of these values.
>
>
Jacqueline P. Siniard
Staff Assistant, Graduate Studies
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Materials Science Building Room C206
Huntsville, Alabama 35899
ph: 205-890-6002 Fax:205-890-6349
e-mail: siniardj@email.uah.edu

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:11:21 -0500
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Cc: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
Message-ID: <v01540b0bb0c080d2ff28@[128.230.1.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Willie's effective dose has increased considerably over the past three
years. We keep close tabs on him, but a few times he has gotten out of
control in a short period of time, and we have decided to reload rather
than to simply increase the dose. That's a judgment call, but the idea is
to get him back under control sooner rather than later. --del

At 3:25 PM 12/18/97, scott wrote:
>Please explain why you would '"reload", did you with hold dosage for an
>extended period..
>----------
>> From: Del Lausa <delausa@mailbox.syr.edu>
>> To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>> Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>> Subject: Re: Ebony and Anipryl
>> Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 3:03 PM
>>
>>
>>
><html><head></head><BODY bgcolor="#FFFFFF">face="Arial">Please explain why you would '"reload", did you
>with hold dosage for an extended period.. color="#000000">---------- > From: Del Lausa <color="#800080">delausa@mailbox.syr.educolor="#000000">> > To: color="#800080">cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.educolor="#000000"> > Cc: color="#800080">cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.educolor="#000000"> > Subject: Re:  Ebony and Anipryl >
>Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 3:03 PM > > >
></body></html>

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:11:36 -0500
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
To: kurvenal@ameritech.net
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Holistic vs. Conventional (Was: Re: Ebony and Anipryl)
Message-ID: <v01540b0cb0c082565a37@[128.230.1.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 6:09 PM 12/18/97, Jeri wrote:
>When it becomes appropriate, however, the conventional vet
>will work with the holistic vet to add in the use of conventional
>treatments for my dogs. At this point, however, the conventional
>vet has recommended that we don't use Lysodren or Anipryl.
>Jeri kurvenal@ameritech.net

I saw a vet on cable tv who was trained in *both* conventional and holistic
approaches. He answered a question on Cushing's by saying that nutritional
treatment is *sometimes* effective in controlling symptoms and perhaps even
slowing progress of the disease in its early stages; he went on to say that
advanced Cushing's should be treated by Lysodren in almost every case. Of
course, there is no reason why you can't continue to try to boost your
dog's immune system while using the Lysodren. It seems foolish to me to
close out an entire body of knowledge. I don't see any reason for animosity
between holistic and conventional practitioners (though i know it is often
there).

del

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:21:14 -0500
From: delausa@mailbox.syr.edu (Del Lausa)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Cc: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren diatribe
Message-ID: <v01540b0eb0c086284019@[128.230.1.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As a way of moving this forward: For those of us who are using Lysodren and
are worried about its toxicity, could you share the details of your
nutritional regimen (along with details about your dog's wieght, age,
etc.). I have done a lot of research myself, but i do have constraints on
my time. I'd like to know what some of you are doing to minimize the
effects of the toxicity of the lysodren. We have Willie on an all-natural
diet (including whatever table scraps he gets from our own all-natural
diets). And he gets a general vitamin. What more should we be doing?

del

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:55:20 -0600
From: Ruthann Peterson <rppete@execpc.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lysodren diatribe
Message-ID: <349AED48.1E723DF6@execpc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Big Grin -- Thank you for your thoughtful response to Laura. As another
mother of a Lysodren baby I have found her absolute proclamations disturbing
-- Ruthann

H Brown wrote:

> Hi and Greetings of the Season,
>
> I've been signed on to this list for several months -- content to just
> listen and keep a finger on the pulse of similarly-focused pet owners.
> Certainly the very fact that we are all gathered here confirms the love
> and responsibility we feel for the precious animals entrusted to us. To
> that end, I feel compelled to respond to the repeated postings of Laura
> regarding her opinion about Lysodren administration for Cushings.
>
> Perhaps before posting to the list, one should consider the dedication
> and commitment of our fellow pet-parents and avoid spouting any
> categorical agendas that might cause pain to anyone. I am concerned that
> such presentations may only confuse and sadden those who are most in need
> of good information and kind support.
>
> I am a former med student, vet tech, retriever breeder,
> trainer/behaviorist, and very active rescue/rehabber, as well as
> typically busy wife/mom/writer -- a med/vet education writer, the paying
> job that supports my lifelong animal habit! I've been around the block
> more than a few times with most of the diseases and conditions that
> assail our beloved charges. If I've learned one thing, it's that
> sensible treatment protocols require a grounding in solid science
> combined with a dash of experienced intuition -- not the other way
> around.
>
> Laura, it is evident that the loss of your dog Clarisse was devastating
> for you as these losses have been for so many of us time and time again.
> I share my life with a number of furry blessings representing several
> species. When, just as an example, my wonderful little doxie-mix rescue
> buddy Monroe eventually leaves us, perhaps from the effects of his
> longstanding Cushings, I'll grieve deeply as always. But at age 14, and
> the last five years on a Lysodren protocol, he's still bouncing around
> like a goofball and having a good old time. Please don't spoil it by
> bombarding me with accusations that I'm killing him with the very
> treatment I have responsibly researched and decided on as the best course
> to maintain his wonderful life. Don't make me the victim of a
> controversy between some allopaths and some naturopaths. Don't base your
> entire learning on one personal experience with one individual animal.
>
> What of some dedicated pet owners who may be less "educated" than others
> and who may be frightened, even guilt-tripped, by your unequivocal and
> emotional soapbox? Is that the way you'd want to be treated in your
> attempt to broaden your knowledge on behalf of the animals you love?
>
> The word "chemotherapy" that you so vilify means treatment with chemical
> substances. Indeed, the distinction between "natural" substances and
> others is moot. Arsenic and toadstools are "all natural" but I do not
> feed them to my dogs. Hurling the word chemotherapy around as if it were
> a synonym for "intentional poisoning" is an irresponsible and
> syntactically wrong move on your part. Boatloads of random facts and
> allegations do not compensate for the misunderstanding and
> misrepresentation of basic concepts.
>
> Most of my animals, including my little Lysodren boy, are on responsibly
> designed regimens of supplemental nutrients, vitamins, and
> immunostimulants. I am a proponent of these applications and, like you,
> I would urge others to educate themselves to these apparently worthwhile
> chemotherapeutic options. Unlike you, however, I would never presume to
> arbitrarily announce to a whole gathering of anonymous
> information-seekers that Lysodren, and the vets who prescribed it, killed
> my dog.
>
> When your cytologies are completed, your controls have been evaluated,
> the factual data of your consultants has been objectively organized, and
> your understandably emotional conclusions have been centrifuged from
> fact, you will then be in a position to formally educate on this topic.
> In the meantime, your diligence is noteworthy and your concern is
> admirable, but you unfortunately defeat your well-meaning intentions by
> haphazardly inciting guilt and worry in those you claim to be educating.
> In education, generosity of spirit is as essential as reliability of
> data. People join these lists for responsible information and sensitive
> support. On behalf of our wordless and perfect pets, let's remain
> committed to both of these values.

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:57:25 -0400
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: "Cushing's e-mail" <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Holistic vs Conventional
Message-ID: <349AFBD5.4CF76DEF@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It has been only a couple of weeks since I first joined this forum and
found it to be most helpful and informative. My dog had been on Anipryl
for six months but with no success. One week ago it was decided that it
was time for Lysodren. With knowing only that Lysodren was a
chemotherapy agent, I was devasted to read the post by Laura as there is
no place in my heart where I could "poison" my dog. Talk about a guilt
trip I put myself thru!! I was ready to run out to a Holistic Vet for a
second opinion based on Laura's post......but thanks to Dillon, Ruthann
and the others who responded to my questions about Lysodren and the
"loading phase", I am much more relaxed. Trust me....I was beginning to
feel devasted but these people helped pull me through. My thanks to you
all for the support and strength you have given me!

Linda

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:03:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: re: Lysodren diatribe *LONG*
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971219233549.28339C-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

All of my Cushing's-Pets friends-

Sorry for taking so long to speak up, y'all. Given my ordeals over the
past four months, I feel like I have a responsibility to respond to this
thread.

As you long-term subscribers certainly remember, my 14+ yr/old terrier mix
was diagnosed with Cushing's in early July. She had been seriously
symptomatic for many months, but it took us multiple visits to numerous
vets to get her correctly diagnosed (both conventional and holistic vets
missed the diagnosis). While trying to determine the source of her
Cushing's, it was discovered that she had a mass in her liver (which was
subsequently removed and determined to be benign) and that she was
recovering from a bought of acute pancreatitis.

Two weeks after her liver surgery, we began her Lysodren loading dose. We
had a *terrible* time trying to regulate her dosage (166 mg daily x 9 for
her little body which was dropping from her normal weight of 15 lbs down
to a mere 11 lbs). We fought her chronically absent appetite and watched
her grow steadily skinnier. She was constantly dehydrated, requiring
frequent subcutaneous fluid treatments. Ironically, it seemed that her
appetite, activity, and PU/PD improved in the late afternoons of the days
she got a morning Lysodren.

On Sept. 23, my sweet baby Melissa began having major seizures (the
result of a brain embolism, the vet thinks) which could only be
controlled with complete sedation. Each time the
sedatives wore off, her seizures returned. She never regained
consciousness. After 17 gruelling, incredibly selfish hours, we finally
did the right thing and had our baby girl put to sleep.

Do know that the pain of her loss hasn't left me for even a day
since her passing.

The point of this horrible story: Missy was a Lysodren pup, too.
Do I believe it hastened her death? I don't believe it caused her clot or
seizures, but I do believe that it negatively impacted her daily quality
of life.
Would I warn anyone away from using Lysodren? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I've seen the pictures and heard the wonderful stories of rejuvenated
geratric dogs. I've seen--and understand!!--the clinical trial results.
Lysodren has a strong track record. It does exactly what it's supposed to
do: destroy part of the adrenal glands so that they produce less
cortisone.

So what about the terrible deaths of mine and Laura's dogs while they were
on Lysodren? Missy (and it sound's like Laura's dog, too) was a very
sick, very old dog. Her whole body--not just her immune system--was
heavily compromised. As the Lysodren reduced the amount of cortisone in
her body, troubles previously masked by the excess cortisone emerged.
Her poor little body had so many problems and had already sustained too
much long-term damage from hyperadrenocorticism. Not being able to get
her dosage regulated definitely affected her appetite, which just
compounded her ill health. The final blow--the blood clot--was not the
result of Lysodren, but rather the direct result of Cushing's.

So, to all of you loving owners who are struggling with treatment options:
I encourage you to talk with your vet. You and he/she can decide
what's best for your particular pet. Learn what you can about the therapy
recommended. Lean on your friends here on the Cushing's-Pets
Forum--that's why I set it up! Ask as many questions as you need to be
able to understand your options. Don't rule out any therapies just
because you've heard a couple of anecdotal horror stories. The odds are
in favor of Lysodren both in the literature and among Lysodren-using
Cushing's Pets Electronic Forum subscribers! Anyone who needs reassurance
about their decision to use Lysodren need only look as far as the pictures
of Bo and Ivan on the Cushing's Gallery page
<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/>

As for chemotherapy in general, I'm quite thankful for it. I have a
grandmother and a coworker who might not be alive today without it. I
also have a relative who is about to undergo chemo for stage III gastric
cancer. In all terrible likelihood, he will die while on chemo or soon
thereafter, but it won't be the fault of the chemo. In the grief that
our family is about to have, I know that the need to blame will be there
and the chemo is one logical outlet. Hopefully we'll remember,
the enemy is not the treatment, the enemy is the illness.

Although it may sound like I'm unabashedly pro-drug, let it be known that
I am not. I am, however, pro-fact. If you have consulted with your vet,
spoken with other experienced owners, and reviewed the
available info, then you can rest easy that your treatment decision is
well-informed, whether it be to use Lysodren, Anipryl, alternative
medicine, or to forgo treatment altogether.

I wish you each love, strength, understanding, and a wonderful holiday
season. Snuggles to all of our special furry friends.

-Leslie

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:23:06 -0600
From: "scott" <scott@adams.net>
To: "cushings" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: vitamin support?
Message-ID: <199712201734.LAA21048@golden.adams.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BD0D39.A4A4C280"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I have been watching closely the debate about Lysodryn and of course want
to give "Jake" every possible benefit . While I am at least for now
comfortable with his current Lysodryn therapy I am concerned about the
possible compromise of his immune system. If some one could review what
vitamins and or supplements are recommended to support him while on
Lysodryn, and the best sources of those vitamins [ foods- pills- multi
supplements etc.]

thanks in advance & merry Xmas
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">I have been watching closely =
the debate about Lysodryn and of course want to give "Jake" =
every possible benefit . While I am at least for now comfortable with =
his current Lysodryn therapy I am concerned about   the =
possible compromise of his immune system. If some one could review what =
vitamins and or supplements are recommended to support him while on =
Lysodryn, and the best sources of those vitamins [ foods- pills- multi =
supplements etc.] thanks in advance  & merry Xmas
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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:13:15 -0800
From: "David ROBERTS" <d_one_delta@email.msn.com>
To: <cushings-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Terrible Ted
Message-ID: <0e46b29131814c7UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com>

Ted has been on Anipryl for three weeks. There has been a slight, but
perceptible improvement in him. He is brighter and does not gasp for air as
he used to due to his partly-collapsed trachea. I have been away for a week
or so and came back to a deluge of mail regarding chemotherapy versus
holistic treatments.
I understand the need for us to know as much as we can about the various
drugs and alternative treatments but, for myself, I don't wish to take a
degree in veterinary medicine. What I am looking for is the comfort that I
can get from others in the same situation. I will rely on Ted's vet and
people like Rob MASON for my dosage of intellectual stimulation.
Peace be unto you and to thy spirit in this season of joy. May we cherish
the love of our canine friends and, for those who have suffered the loss,
re-live the wonderful memories they created with us.
Eileen and Dave ROBERTS

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:03:42 -0800
From: Jeri <kurvenal@ameritech.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: vitamin support?
Message-ID: <349C4ECE.133E@ameritech.net>
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scott wrote:
> If some one could
> review what vitamins and or supplements are recommended to support him
> while on Lysodryn, and the best sources of those vitamins [ foods-
> pills- multi supplements etc.]

Here is what is recommended for *people* with Cushings, according
to"Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Balch and Balch:
(And please check with your vet before trying any of these--it
might not be appropriate for your individual dog. I use some
but not all of these for my dogs, along with Chinese herbs
and acupuncture. We're balancing multiple problems, so
I have to be very careful about maintaining the right balance
for my dogs--but everyone should check into any of these
carefully before adding them in for their dog):
Vit. B complex plus extra B5, Vit. C with bioflavonoids,
L-Tyrosine, Raw adrenal and raw adrenal cortex grandulars,
Chlorophyll, Coenzyme Q10, Geranium, Multivitamin and mineral complex
with natural beta-carotene and copper plus potassium,
zinc, raw liver extract, raw spleen and raw pituitary glandulars.
For herbs, the recommendation is:
astragalus, (but don't use it in the presence of a fever),
China Gold (contains 10 different varieties of ginseng along
with 26 other herbs), echinacea, milk thistle, siberian ginseng,
(but don't use ginseng if you are hypoglycemic, have high blood
pressure, or have a heart disorder.)
The recommendations under diet mostly don't apply--no alcohol, etc.
But, some could be used: use plenty of fruits and vegetables,
especially green leafy ones. Brewer's yeast, brown rice, legumes,
nuts, olive and safflower oils, seeds, wheat germ, and whole grains
are good to add. Include garlic, shitake mushrooms, and pearl
barley. Stay away from fats, fried foods, ham, pork, highly processed
foods, red meats, sodas, sugar, and white flour.
Get moderate exercise. And, avoid stress.

For those looking for something to help minimize stress for their
dog, I recommend looking into the use of flower essences.
Rescue Remedy might be familiar to many people, (a combination
of 5 flower essences), but I use a custom formula for my dogs.
But, make sure that it's OK for your dog before trying it....
I hope that everyone has a wonderful holiday season.
Jeri kurvenal@ameritech.net

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:57:30 EST
From: HelenFW <HelenFW@aol.com>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Anipryl
Message-ID: <1f641a0.349c3f4d@aol.com>
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I just wondered has anyone experienced good results with Anipryl? If so, how
long did it take for you to see improvement in your pet's symptoms? Thanks in
advance.

Helen

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:38:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: re: Lysodren diatribe *LONG* (fwd from Wendy)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971220173722.22116A-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
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To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
From: kyzylkum@jps.net (Wendy & Brian Duggan)
Subject: re: Lysodren diatribe *LONG*

I have to agree with Leslie on Lysodren. But, then, Flyssa was one of the
"success" stories. She responded well during the loading phase, no serious
side effects, and it controlled her cortisol levels until her pituitary
tumor apparently increased in size and caused other complications that
ultimately killed her (I don't want to go into that again--it's still too
raw, it's only been a few weeks). BUT she was a younger dog when she was
diagnosed and started treatment--6 years old--and it didn't entirely
control her PU/PD (an indirect cause of her death). She was on Lysodren for
nearly three years, and a fairly high does at that. Her quality of life was
excellent until very close to the end; in fact, when she was on the
maintenance dose, we noticed how MUCH better she felt than she had before
treatment (when she didn't noticably feel bad--but the contrast of feeling
VERY good was so great!).

Anyway, I echo Leslie--understand what Lysodren is all about (and my vet at
Davis was VERY clear on what it was and how it worked) but dont' rule it
out.

With that note, Leslie, I find that I can't keep up at all with the
list--too much going on with the move and my commuting back to Santa Cruz
from Turlock to work...so, please unsubscribe me, and best of luck to all
of you!

Wendy

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:27:09 -0500
From: Smedes/Mason <76255.1470@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Lysodren
Message-ID: <199712220027_MC2-2CCC-B1C9@compuserve.com>
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Sorry gang, I've been away for a few days, and these messages pile up in a
hurry! I'm sorry to have missed most of the "Lysodren diatribe", as this
is one of my favorite subjects.

First, to address Linda's " the best time to give" question. Lysodren is a
fat-soluble medication, and is best given with food. This both decreases
the chance of nausea, as well as improving absorption of the drug. The
peanut butter and tortillas that Dillon gives is actually a great idea
(i.e., a fatty snack) provided that your dog is not obese, has congestive
heart failure (the peanut butter is high in salt), or has a history of
pancreatitis (high fat can cause relapse).

Secondly, Laura's point about lysodren being chemotherapy is exactly true.
I have come to the point in my career when discussing treatment with an
owner of a cancer patient, I use the term "anticancer drug therapy", as
"chemotherapy" has lost it's real meaning, and has become a "buzz word"
with many different meanings to different people. It often conjures up the
tragic memories of a love-one being ravaged by the horrors of cancer and
the devastating effects of the therapies.

The exact definition of chemotherapy is "drug therapy". Every time we take
an aspirin for a headache, we have just had chemotherapy. All medicine is
chemotherapy, but the term became popular with oncologists (cancer
specialists) to distinguish the 3 major forms of cancer therapy; i) drugs,
ii) radiation, iii) surgery (there have been more modalities added to this
list recently).

Lysodren (op'DDD or mitotane) is a chemical, however, being structurally
related to DDT has very little relevance - a chemical changed at one single
carbon molecule can have completely opposing effects. Lidocaine, used by
your dentist to freeze your gums, is only 2 molecules different from
cocaine..... don't go razzing your dentist about getting you hooked, it is
completely non-hallucinogenic and non-addictive!

L:ysodren is, however, a cytotoxic drug, meaning one that kills cells. The
zona fasciculata and the zona reticularis that are damaged by this drug are
the 2 layers of the adrenal gland that produce the excessive amounts of
cortisol that cause the clinical signs of Cushing's disease in the first
place. This is not a side effect of the medication, but the specific
intention of it's use in Cushing's. It is very good at killing this area
of the adrenal gland (i.e., so-called adrenolytic effect). Unlike most
other chemotherapeutic agents used in anti-cancer therapy, op'DDD's effect
is almost exclusive to this target organ, and spares the rest of the body
almost entirely. In fact, it spares the third layer of the adrenal gland
(the zona glomerulosa), which produces another steroid hormone called
aldosterone. Most other cytotoxic drugs are not this discriminating, and
tissue damage (hence toxic side effects) is more common from them than from
op'DDD.

Calling Lysodren a "cancerous medicine" would imply that it causes cancer.
I have been unable to find a single reference to that as a side effect of
this drug, and have never witnessed nor heard of a case in which this was
suspected. It is true, that it is used to treat some cancers, mainly
adrenal tumours that cause non-pituitary
dependent Cushing's disease.

I thought that Jackie's letter was both eloquent and medically correct.
ALL drugs, whether synthesized on a lab bench, or distilled from natural
herbs and flowers, have both positive and negative effects. Most of the
antibiotics we use came from natural fungus' - it's just we can mass
produce them more cost-effectively in a laboratory than waiting for a
fungus to grow in Lincoln Nebraska so we can distill Lincomycin from it.
Many of the common heart medications are from plants (digitalis is from
deadly nightshade, atropine is from belladonna), and even chemotherapy
drugs (vincristine is from the periwinkle plant). If an allopath
prescribes vincristine, that's chemotherapy, but if a naturopath prescribes
periwinkle extract, that's natural herbal medication.

The point is to evaluate all of the effects of any medication (natural or
chemically derived), and choose those which, to the best of your knowlege,
have the most positive effects on the disease state, and the fewest
negative effects on the body. Although trained as an allopath, I have used
magnetics, bioceramics, and phytochemically-enriched nutritional therapy
for myself, my family, and my pets..... but only if I am comfortable that
they do no harm. As terrible as many of the classical chemotherapy drugs
are, they have the advantage over many "alternative" or "homeopathic"
remedies of having had completed phase I safety trials in order to get FDA
approval to use as a treatment.

"Alternative Medicine" sounds like the lines have been drawn in the sand,
and yiou must choose one side or the other. "Complementary" medicine is the
wave of the future - allopathic practitioners working along side
naturopaths, to take the best of both idioms, and improve the quality of
health care for all patients, human and veterinary.

This is medicine of the new millenium.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I think you all deserve a more detailed
explanation of the drugs you are using to treat your pets, and from the
varying opinions expressed during this recent diatribe, you all had a bit
of the picture, but not all. I hope this clears things up, rather than
muddying the waters.

Best of luck to all in the Holiday Season and the New Year.

Cheers,

Robert A. Mason, BSc, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ABVP, ACVIM