Cushing's Disease/Syndrome | Electronic Forum Digest 40

CUSHINGS-PETS Digest 40

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: 21st???
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
2) Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
3) Re: Water Intake
by SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
4) Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
by hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
5) anipryl
by floyd@zianet.com
6) Re: Lifespan of Anipryl
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
7) Re[2]: Loose Stools
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
8) Re: Water Intake
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
9) Cushing's Admin Notes---not as dry as it sounds....
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
10) Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
11) Re: vaccines/ other preventives for Cushing's pets
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
12) Re: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
by hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
13) Re: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
by hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
14) a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
15) Re: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
16) Re: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
17) Re: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
18) Re: anipryl
by Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
19) MacTavish
by wpersky@olivermcmillan.com
20) Water Intake
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
21) Re: anipryl
by Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
22) Update on Punkin
by "Chris and Michelle Dauten" <cdauten@planetkc.com>
23) Re: anipryl
by "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
24) Re: anipryl
by Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
25) Wife Forwarding Messages to Cushings
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
26) Re: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
by Kathleen Richards <krichard@acme.csusb.edu>
27) Hello everybody
by Miner <marcia@nortexinfo.net>
28) Re: anipryl
by "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
29) Re: anipryl
by Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
30) Water Intake
by L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
31) Re: Hello everybody
by Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
32) Anipryl: to test or not to test
by Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
33) Re: HOT Weather
by Susan West <swok34@swbell.net>
34) Re: CUSHNOID FRIEND
by Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
35) Odd chewing behavior
by "Rosemary G. Blascetta" <rblascet@pacbell.net>
36) Re: Odd chewing behavior
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
37) Springer's new vet was:Hello everybody
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
38) amylase values and additional symptoms
by "Deal, Gaye" <Gaye.Deal@wl.com>
39) Re: amylase values and additional symptoms
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
40) Chewing behavior
by DLowder25@aol.com
41) Introduction
by Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
42) Re: amylase values and additional symptoms
by Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
43) Re: Introduction
by Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
44) Re: Introduction
by Danestuff@aol.com
45) Re: Introduction
by Jean Spradlin-Miller <kmiller@beowulf.mhsl.uab.edu>
46) Re: Introduction
by Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
47) Re: Introduction
by Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
48) RE: amylase values and additional symptoms
by "Deal, Gaye" <Gaye.Deal@wl.com>
49) Re: Introduction
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
50) cushings/diabetes possible cause
by "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
51) Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by CBABTPC@aol.com
52) MacTavish
by Tom White <trw@virginia.edu>
53) Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
54) Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
55) Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
56) Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by Glimpact@aol.com
57) Update on Bishop
by Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
58) Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by Susan West <swok34@swbell.net>
59) Re[2]: cushings/diabetes possible cause
by Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
60) Re: Introduction
by Tom White <trw@virginia.edu>
61) susan
by "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
62) Re: Introduction (Stacy and Bishop)
by Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
63) Re: Introduction (Stacy and Bishop)
by Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
64) Cushings cause
by DLowder25@aol.com
65) Re: susan
by "Scottee Meade" <scottee@huskynet.com>
66) Re: Cushings cause
by "Scottee Meade" <scottee@huskynet.com>
67) re hereditary Cushings
by "Chris and Michelle Dauten" <cdauten@planetkc.com>
68) LATEST ON DUFFY DOG
by <loiskos@ix.netcom.com>
69) Our attempt at boarding
by Sandy Hempe <dogdazed@sprintmail.com>
70) Re: Aborted Boarding Plan
by write2tom@juno.com (Thomas D Johnston)

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:15:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: 21st???
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980622091320.7517A-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

My 21st birthday has been July 8th for the past ten years. ;-)

-Leslie

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, L Boyce wrote:

> Okay Leslie.....Fess Up!!! When's your 21st birthday? You knew
> somebody would ask!!
>
> Linda
>

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:39:14 -0500
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
Message-ID: <9806220939.ZM8825@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Jun 20, 10:36pm, Adrenal@aol.com wrote:
> Subject: Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
> Just a couple of points.
>
> First of all if is very unlikely that a 4 year old dog would develop Cushings
> disease. The average age is 14 yrs. Are we absolutely sure of the diagnosis?

I won't dispute your access to more information, but 14? I could easily see 8,
or even 10 (Ivan was about 10 when he went symptomatic, and 11 when diagnosed).

> What are the symptoms and how was the diagnosis confirmed?
>
> Secondly about 20% of dogs will have a normal SAP not 1-2 %.
>
> Thirdly, there is no data on how long Anipryl will be effective in your dog
or
> any other. The drud has only been around for 1 year and the longest we have
> had any dogs on the medication has been about 3.5 years during the clinical
> trials.

Hmmm, when we had asked Dr. Smith, his view was that Ivan had done "very well"
on Lysodren, so why fool with a winner.

>
> David Bruyette DVM
> Diplomate American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine

I can't thank you enough for you learned contributions. I hope that others can
benefit, if only to ask the right questions of their vet.

>-- End of excerpt from Adrenal@aol.com

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
Hell hath no fury like root.

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:06:24 -0500
From: SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Water Intake
Message-ID: <0014D49C.3272@redstone.army.mil>

Linda we have noticed that too. Our Sunny's water intake drops on the
days she receives her Lysodren and increase on the other days. So it
is a see-saw on the water intake. We of course do not see such a
dramatic increase/decrease, because Sunny is small, but she goes from
27-28 ounces on days without Lysodren to 16-17 on the days she does.
Our new vet said it is her reaction to the increased amount of
Cortisol in her body. She drinks more because of it. That is why we
are now reloading. Sunny is on 500 mg every other day for two weeks
then we retest.

Randy (Sunny's Daddy) Jackie (Sunny's Mummy) SUNNY, Saphir (Sunny's
Cat Sister) and Sadie (Sunny's Sister at the Rainbow Bridge)

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Water Intake
Author: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu at INTERNET
Date: 6/21/98 6:46 PM

Can someone PLEASE explain something to me or let me know if they are
experiencing water intakes levels to vary so much from day to day?????

Schonus has gone from drinking 1 1/2 gallons of water two days ago and
now today is back to where he should be . . around three quarts. Every
time I call my Vet to let him know of the increase....whamo....his water
intake drops back to normal!! His water intake increases the day AFTER
his maintenance dose and then decreases the day BEFORE his next
maintenance dose. He's now getting 1500 mgs. twice a week.

Got good news tho...we changed Schonus' food and his colitis is almost
cured!! I never thought I would be happy about seeing normal stool!!
He was up to going 8 times a day and is now down to 4 times.

I sure hope someone can explain this or is experiencing the same problem
( if it is one)....I need to buy stock in Clairol!

Linda

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:11:30 EDT
From: hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
Message-ID: <19980622.100413.9983.2.hilbro@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:39:14 -0500 "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
writes:
>On Jun 20, 10:36pm, Adrenal@aol.com wrote:

>> First of all if is very unlikely that a 4 year old dog would develop
>Cushings
>> disease. The average age is 14 yrs. Are we absolutely sure of the
>diagnosis?
>
>I won't dispute your access to more information, but 14? I could
>easily see 8,
>or even 10 (Ivan was about 10 when he went symptomatic, and 11 when
>diagnosed).

According to Mercks, Cushings develops in adult to aged dogs with a mean
age of 8.5 years. Perhaps because of the slowly progressive nature of
the pathology, many dogs are not formally dxed until after it has been
well established. My current Cushings dog was dxed at age 8, still doing
beautifully on Lysodren maintenance at age 12.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:29:45 -0600
From: floyd@zianet.com
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: anipryl
Message-ID: <358E7869.51C6@zianet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Cybil has been on 30mg of Anipryl (she weighs about 50 lbs.) for 2 1/2
months now. Some of her symptoms have improved, i.e., her appetite has
decreased somewhat (except for freshly broiled salmon, which she loves),
the lameness in her back legs has improved and she once again sleeps on
her loveseat, but other symptoms have not changed. For example, she
still is very inactive and pants a great deal. In fact, it seems like
the panting is getting worse. Sometimes, her whole body rocks with her
breathing.

My question is three sided. First of all, for those of you whose babies
have been on Anipryl for a longer period of time, do some symptoms
improve and others not, or does the fact that not all of her symptoms
are improving mean that Anipryl does not work for her?

Second, when I asked my vet about testing to see if the Anipryl is
working, he said that the Anipryl only treats the symptoms, and,
therefore, nothing on the tests would change. I don't really know what
"treating only the symptoms" means, and he's not very communicative, but
I keep reading that some of you have your babies on Anipryl tested to
see if it works. Please let me know what your experience with various
tests has been.

Finally, Cybil gets 30 mg. of Anipryl daily. Would an increase in the
dosage help? Is this done or is there only one dosage and that's it?

Any input will be greatly appreciated, because we are in rural New
Mexico and I have no one to discuss these things with except you all.
Thanks.

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:42:08 -0500
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Lifespan of Anipryl
Message-ID: <9806221042.ZM11596@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

No, the statement was that Anipryl has only been tested for about 3-4 years,
and has only been available in the US for a little over a year, now.

Punkin has a long future ahead of her. She is, after all, a Corgi :-)

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
Hell hath no fury like root.

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:14:36 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Loose Stools
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980622161436.0074442c@email.uah.edu>
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>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:53:58 -0500
>From: SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
>To: siniardj@email.uah.edu
>Subject: Re[2]: Loose Stools
>
>
>
> Hi --
>
> I am replying to this message which will be forwarded by my wife
since I
>can not do it directly. Anyway, our Sunny was put on a controlled diet by the
>vet because of her weight gain as related to Cushings. She has both Hill's
>Science Diet R/D dry and wet. She weighed in at almost 20 pounds and she is a
>Manchester (Terrier) and Chihuahua mix. She should weight around 12-14
pounds.
>So this extra 6 pounds made her quite rotund. She has lost close to 2 pounds
>and it has helped. We have been giving her 1/3 cup dry biscuits and 1/4 can
>(the large one) twice daily. Believe me if you want to see a dog go,
introduce
>them to a all fiber diet. Canned R/D is from what I have been told 90% water
>with 10% fiber, and the dry is mostly fiber. So what does fiber do?
Anyway, it
>took awhile for our Sunny to get used to eating this stuff and at first we had
>to doctor it (using a homemade vegetable soup - easier to control salt and
other
>stuff if you make it at home). I mean how many vegetable soups have Brocolli
>and Cauliflower in them? Right now we no longer have to doctor her food.
>
>The only time I have really noticed loose (diarrhea) stools is after her ACTH
>stim test. It's that shot that does it. She does however have soft stools
most
>of the time (that fiber will do it everytime).
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Loose Stools
>Author: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu at INTERNET
>Date: 6/21/98 12:06 AM
>
>
>
>> << One cup of white rice mixed with his food for a
>> couple of days solved the problem. >>
>>
>> If white rice doesn't work, try brown. When I give Jessie white rice,
>> it gives her the worst diarrhea, but brown rice helps to settle her tummy.
>>
>Hi. Reeeealllly stupid question here, but is that cooked rice or just the
>raw grains?
>
>My Cush monster (Maggie) has been a bad dog lately. The other day she
>leaped off a retaining wall onto the road (to bark at a man), and was
>limping for some
>time afterwards. It makes me worry that she's done damage to her hind
>legs/lower back, although she seems no worse for wear.
>
>Today she stole half of my baguette while I was right next to her!!
>Hopefully she's not hungry because I did cut down on her food (she's way
>too fat, and she poops far more than any dog I've ever seen...even dogs
>twice her size). Am I doing the right thing? I fear that her obesity is
>causing some health problems, and that it might cause worse ones in the
>future. On the other hand, obviously a Cushings dog wants to eat a lot.
>
>Would she be suffering if I cut back? Or is it for the best? What do
>people here think?
>
> Lia and Maggie
>
>==============================================================================
> "The slogan `Vote for me and I'll lend you my pants', can often be
> misconstrued" ---Jerry Boyle, This Hour Has 22 Minutes
> Lia M Brown, Mad Praetor and Grand High Duchess of the Procrastinators
> lmbrown@trentu.ca anlmb@blaze.trentu.ca "Gattai, Dinoking!"
>==============================================================================
>Palpatine's dead. Vote Wedge. Antilles/Celchu '00!
>
>
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>Subject: Re: Loose Stools
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>

Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

Jacqueline P. Siniard
Staff Assistant, Graduate Studies
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Materials Science Building Room C206
Huntsville, Alabama 35899
ph: 205-890-6002 Fax:205-890-6349
e-mail: siniardj@email.uah.edu

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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:15:26 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Water Intake
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980622161526.00a9789c@email.uah.edu>
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>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:06:24 -0500
>Reply-To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Sender: owner-cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>From: SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
>To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Subject: Re: Water Intake
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
>
>
> Linda we have noticed that too. Our Sunny's water intake drops on the
> days she receives her Lysodren and increase on the other days. So it
> is a see-saw on the water intake. We of course do not see such a
> dramatic increase/decrease, because Sunny is small, but she goes from
> 27-28 ounces on days without Lysodren to 16-17 on the days she does.
> Our new vet said it is her reaction to the increased amount of
> Cortisol in her body. She drinks more because of it. That is why we
> are now reloading. Sunny is on 500 mg every other day for two weeks
> then we retest.
>
> Randy (Sunny's Daddy) Jackie (Sunny's Mummy) SUNNY, Saphir (Sunny's
> Cat Sister) and Sadie (Sunny's Sister at the Rainbow Bridge)
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Water Intake
>Author: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu at INTERNET
>Date: 6/21/98 6:46 PM
>
>
>Can someone PLEASE explain something to me or let me know if they are
>experiencing water intakes levels to vary so much from day to day?????
>
>Schonus has gone from drinking 1 1/2 gallons of water two days ago and
>now today is back to where he should be . . around three quarts. Every
>time I call my Vet to let him know of the increase....whamo....his water
>intake drops back to normal!! His water intake increases the day AFTER
>his maintenance dose and then decreases the day BEFORE his next
>maintenance dose. He's now getting 1500 mgs. twice a week.
>
>Got good news tho...we changed Schonus' food and his colitis is almost
>cured!! I never thought I would be happy about seeing normal stool!!
>He was up to going 8 times a day and is now down to 4 times.
>
>I sure hope someone can explain this or is experiencing the same problem
>( if it is one)....I need to buy stock in Clairol!
>
>Linda
>
>
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Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:18:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Cushing's Admin Notes---not as dry as it sounds....
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980622110117.7517H-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Just a few, exciting, administrative notes:

I installed a counter on the Cushing's web page a few weeks ago, and I
thought you'd be interested in the results:

Jun 7-13: 112 hits
Jun 14-20: 93 hits

Wow!! Guess there are a lot of folks out there interested in Cushing's
Disease!

Also, we currently have 106 subscribers. Way to go, y'all!

______________
Leslie
lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu
Cushing's Listserv and Web Page Facilitator
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:30:28 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980622163028.00a91f34@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:54:37 -0500
>From: SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
>To: siniardj@email.uah.edu
>Subject: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
>
>
> Is anyone reading this information. The Doc said **Average Age**.
> Does that not mean you take all the ages and add them together then
> divide by the total amount. So it could be quite possible that when
> the study was done the average age was 14. That does not mean that a
> few of the dogs could not have been age 8-10, but that the majority of
> the animals were older, so the average went higher. I am not trying
> to be sarcastic or anything, but we all tend to see our dogs age and
> think that the age of 14 is unrealistic. It would seem that most of
> the dogs on this list are older when diagnosed. Our Sunny was 10, so
> I do understand how most feel, but **Average** does not mean that
> younger can not also be possible.
>
> Randy (Sunny's Daddy)
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
>Author: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu at INTERNET
>Date: 6/22/98 9:39 AM
>
>
>On Jun 20, 10:36pm, Adrenal@aol.com wrote:
>> Subject: Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
>> Just a couple of points.
>>
>> First of all if is very unlikely that a 4 year old dog would develop Cushings
>> disease. The average age is 14 yrs. Are we absolutely sure of the diagnosis?
>
>I won't dispute your access to more information, but 14? I could easily see 8,
>or even 10 (Ivan was about 10 when he went symptomatic, and 11 when diagnosed).
>
>> What are the symptoms and how was the diagnosis confirmed?
>>
>> Secondly about 20% of dogs will have a normal SAP not 1-2 %.
>>
>> Thirdly, there is no data on how long Anipryl will be effective in your dog
>or
>> any other. The drud has only been around for 1 year and the longest we have
>> had any dogs on the medication has been about 3.5 years during the clinical
>> trials.
>
>Hmmm, when we had asked Dr. Smith, his view was that Ivan had done "very well"
>on Lysodren, so why fool with a winner.
>
>>
>> David Bruyette DVM
>> Diplomate American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine
>
>I can't thank you enough for you learned contributions. I hope that others can
>benefit, if only to ask the right questions of their vet.
>
>>-- End of excerpt from Adrenal@aol.com
>
>
>
>--
>dillon pyron
>dillon.pyron@amd.com
>Hell hath no fury like root.
>
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>From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
>To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Subject: Re: Anipryl to Lysodren
>In-Reply-To: Adrenal@aol.com
> "Re: Anipryl to Lysodren" (Jun 20, 10:36pm)
>References: <264931d3.358c71be@aol.com>
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>

Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:43:45 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: vaccines/ other preventives for Cushing's pets
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980622164345.00aad62c@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, Our new vet told us not to bother with Frontline or Advantage as no
flea would live on her body with the amount of Lysodren in her systyem, we
do however put Frontline on our cat once a month, so far I have not found
one flea on Sunny and I flea comb her every few days and I am always
checking her, this will be the first year that I have not used anything on
her, but I am giving the vet the benefit of the doubt. Sunny is very short
haired anyway and loosing quite alot now, she has a bald spot on the end of
her tail now. Regards Jackie - Huntsville, AL

At 11:07 PM 6/21/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 6/21/1998 10:45:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>cdauten@planetkc.com writes:
>
><< Forgot to ask this earlier, but is it okay for a Cushing's pet to use
> products such as Frontline, Advantage, etc? >>
>
>Michelle, I've used both Program and Frontline on my Cushings baby,
>and she's fine. She's allergic to fleas, so keeping them under control is
>critical.
>
>Jackie
>
>

Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:10:19 EDT
From: hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
Message-ID: <19980622.120249.9983.5.hilbro@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:30:28 -0500 Jackie Siniard
<siniardj@email.uah.edu> writes:

>> Is anyone reading this information.

Yes, I am. I watched the responses for awhile and then submitted mine.
With all due respect to the poster of the 14-year average, I agreed more
with those who questioned it.

>The Doc said **Average Age**. Does that not mean you take all the ages
> and add them together then divide by the total amount.

Exactly right. The average, or mean, value indicates an equal range of
departure both below and above the value cited as average. Therefore, 14
could be the average of a range going from 13 to 15...or a range going
from 8 to 20. Since there are so many anecdotes of 8 and 9 year old dogs
with Cushings, one would then expect there to be an equal number of
anecdotes about 20 year old dogs. But there just aren't very many 20 year
old dogs alive, no less getting newly diagnosed with Cushings.

>So it could be quite possible that when the study was done the average
age >was 14. That does not mean that a few of the dogs could not have
been age >8-10, but that the majority of the animals were older, so the
average went >higher.

Certainly possible, but given the lifespan statistics for dogs, it seems
unlikely. That's why I felt the Mercks reference of mean age at diagnosis
being 8.5 seemed more plausible to me.

>I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but we all tend to see our

>dogs age and think that the age of 14 is unrealistic. It would seem
that
>most of the dogs on this list are older when diagnosed. Our Sunny was
>10, so I do understand how most feel, but **Average** does not mean
>that younger can not also be possible.

Not at all. But speaking only for myself, I'd be inclined to think that
age 14 would better represent the MEDIAN age for Cushings diagnosis, that
is, the age falling in the middle of a list of ages, but not necessarily
representing the most *frequent* age at diagnosis. Thus, if dogs are
diagnosed at 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20 years, 14 would be the median,
but it would not say that THE MOST diagnoses are made at age 14. Could
be that the most diagnoses are made at age 10. It's just that 14 is the
age in the middle of the representational scale. That, given the text
references to 8.5 being the average age, seems to sound more realistic to
me. I don't suppose it's really very important, though. What's
important is accurate diagnosis and optimum treatment regardless of the
age of the patient. It's just that if people think the great majority of
dogs don't get Cushings until they're 14, many cases of younger-onset may
be missed or misdiagnosed when they could be caught sooner.

H. Brown
Prennydew Labradors

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:28:07 EDT
From: hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
Message-ID: <19980622.122048.9983.6.hilbro@juno.com>

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:03:40 hilbro writes:

>Exactly right. The average, or mean, value indicates an equal range
>of departure both below and above the value cited as average.
>Therefore, 14 could be the average of a range going from 13 to 15...or
>a range going from 8 to 20.

Just realized as I sent this off that I phrased this stupidly and it
could be misconstrued. Obviously, 14 can also be an average of the value
14 represented many times, with a number of slightly lower values plus
only one or two much higher values averaged in. Averages don't give us
frequencies. But my point was that given the heavy anecdotal evidence of
all the younger dogs and no anecdotes at all of older ones, this sounds
more like the median than the average. Don't want to generate any
arithmetic arguments. I still think the Mercks number sounds more
likely.

H. Brown
Prennydew Labradors

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:30:28 -0500 Jackie Siniard
<siniardj@email.uah.edu> writes:

>> Is anyone reading this information.

Yes, I am. I watched the responses for awhile and then submitted mine.
With all due respect to the poster of the 14-year average, I agreed more
with those who questioned it.

>The Doc said **Average Age**. Does that not mean you take all the ages
> and add them together then divide by the total amount.

Certainly possible, but given the lifespan statistics for dogs, it seems
unlikely. That's why I felt the Mercks reference of mean age at diagnosis
being 8.5 seemed more plausible to me.

>I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but we all tend to see our

H. Brown
Prennydew Labradors

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:47:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980622123410.29845F-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Not to pick nits or patronize, but as a professional statistical analyst,
I have to speak up. A not-so-quick review of terms:

MEAN: the statistical average. *NOT* the true center of the data range,
but the "center of gravity" of a range.
The formula for this number is (x1 +x2...+xn)/n where n is the number of
observations. Mean is a popular measure because it is familiar
to most people and it reflects the inclusion of every item in the data
set. But, it has the disadvantage of being affected by extreme values in
the data, and therefore can be biased.
In our example of average diagnosis age being 14, this number
could be arrived at from most dogs truly being 14 at diagnosis, thus
heavily biasing the value towards a mean of 14 OR may be
the result of many dogs being diagnosed between, say 9 and 12, but a
significant, but small, cluster being diagnosed at very old ages, say 18
or older, thus biasing the average upward. These are just two examples of
how an average of age 14 could be achieved.

MEDIAN: This is the true middle value in a series--that is, equal
numbers of values exist both above and below the median for series. For
example the median in each of the very different following series is 14:

1 5 12 14 20 22 24 (the mean here is 14)
8 10 12 14 16 18 20 (the mean here is 14)
13 13 13 14 14 15 15 (the mean here is just under 14)
*
This example also shows what varying combinations in values can result in
a mean of 14. In the first example, the mean is 14, although we all know
that pituitary and adrenal-tumor induced Cushing's is virtually
non-existent in dogs as young as 1, and we know that very few dogs live to
be older than 20. The last two examples are more realistic possibilities.

Granted, my examples are based on a very small set of numbers, which gives
outliers (extreme values) a greater weight. In larger studies, outliers
are often omitted. Even if they weren't, with a larger number of
observations, extreme values are often diluted when computing the mean by
the presence of lower or more common values.

MODE: Perhaps this statistic might be of the most interest to us in terms
of age at diagnosis. The mode is the value which appears most frequently
in a series. Consider the following series, pulled from our very own
Cushing's friends:

14 13 11 7 16 10 11 6

The mode of this series--which happens to be the age at diagnosis for the
first 8 pups on the Cushing's Gallery--is 11. See, the value of 11 shows
up twice in the series. Of course, this small, completely unscientific
sample shouldn't be extrapolated to be representative of all dogs, this is
just an illustration of what the mode is.

Now that I've bored each of you to sleep, I'll let the topic drop. I just
wanted to be sure that we're all informed consumers of information.

-Leslie

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:06:29 -0500
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
Message-ID: <9806221406.ZM20798@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

But, what about standard deviation? And distribution? :-)

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
Hell hath no fury like root.

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:48:10 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Anipryl to Lysodren
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980622194810.00a799a4@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

To whom ever wrote this response, I forwarded the response from my husband
and he always states that, please do not write from Jackie Siniard as I may
not always agree with what my husband Randy writes. Thanks

At 01:10 PM 6/22/98 EDT, you wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:30:28 -0500 Jackie Siniard
><siniardj@email.uah.edu> writes:
>
>>> Is anyone reading this information.
>
>Yes, I am. I watched the responses for awhile and then submitted mine.
>With all due respect to the poster of the 14-year average, I agreed more
>with those who questioned it.
>
>>The Doc said **Average Age**. Does that not mean you take all the ages
>> and add them together then divide by the total amount.
>
>Exactly right. The average, or mean, value indicates an equal range of
>departure both below and above the value cited as average. Therefore, 14
>could be the average of a range going from 13 to 15...or a range going
>from 8 to 20. Since there are so many anecdotes of 8 and 9 year old dogs
>with Cushings, one would then expect there to be an equal number of
>anecdotes about 20 year old dogs. But there just aren't very many 20 year
>old dogs alive, no less getting newly diagnosed with Cushings.
>
>>So it could be quite possible that when the study was done the average
>age >was 14. That does not mean that a few of the dogs could not have
>been age >8-10, but that the majority of the animals were older, so the
>average went >higher.
>
>Certainly possible, but given the lifespan statistics for dogs, it seems
>unlikely. That's why I felt the Mercks reference of mean age at diagnosis
>being 8.5 seemed more plausible to me.
>
>>I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but we all tend to see our
>
>>dogs age and think that the age of 14 is unrealistic. It would seem
>that
>>most of the dogs on this list are older when diagnosed. Our Sunny was
>>10, so I do understand how most feel, but **Average** does not mean
>>that younger can not also be possible.
>
>Not at all. But speaking only for myself, I'd be inclined to think that
>age 14 would better represent the MEDIAN age for Cushings diagnosis, that
>is, the age falling in the middle of a list of ages, but not necessarily
>representing the most *frequent* age at diagnosis. Thus, if dogs are
>diagnosed at 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20 years, 14 would be the median,
>but it would not say that THE MOST diagnoses are made at age 14. Could
>be that the most diagnoses are made at age 10. It's just that 14 is the
>age in the middle of the representational scale. That, given the text
>references to 8.5 being the average age, seems to sound more realistic to
>me. I don't suppose it's really very important, though. What's
>important is accurate diagnosis and optimum treatment regardless of the
>age of the patient. It's just that if people think the great majority of
>dogs don't get Cushings until they're 14, many cases of younger-onset may
>be missed or misdiagnosed when they could be caught sooner.
>
>H. Brown
>Prennydew Labradors
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:51:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980622141606.5854D-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

You want more?!? Gee, I though mean, median and mode were enough for most
of us to choke on. I skirted around these issues to keep the explanation
simple, but Dillon's right, these are important measures. He
asked out of sheer obnoxiousness ;-), but here goes anyhow.

The standard deviation, the measure of variability
within a set of numbers as expressed in the set's original units, helps
you understand what the distribution of values really looks like.

The frequency distribution, a visual method of seeing how
the values "clump", is also useful. For example, consider the following
distribution, also pulled from the Cushing's gallery:

Age
at Dx Frequency
5 1
6 2
7 4
9 4
10 3
11 3
12 1
13 1
14 2
16 1 (beloved Clea here)

This shows that at least among our proudly displayed friends in the
gallery, most were diagnosed at ages much younger than the published
average of 14. I'll leave it to you to figure the rest of the relevant
stats....

Enough math already!!

Next week's lesson: photosynthesis

-Leslie

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Dillon Pyron wrote:

> But, what about standard deviation? And distribution? :-)

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:39:47 +0100
From: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: anipryl
Message-ID: <358E7AC3.17BE@freeway.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Penny has been on anipryl for 10 months. She was started at 15 mg and
then upped to 30 mg when the 15 wasn't doing anything for her. She has
gained muscle tone back and lost 15lbs since last Sept. when she was
started on it. She was in dire condition at that time and we were
considering putting her down then . Anipryl was her savior at that time.
She has had one bout with the anipryl when she was being supressed too
much and now is taking 15 mg a day. It was during my Spring break so I
was here to keep an eye on her when we had to take her off all meds and
put her on prednisone for a couple of days before we started the anipryl
at the 15 mg dose. She is running around with the other dogs now and
going up and down the steps in front of the house. She is playing with
the younger dogs and has the best life right now that she has had since
6 months before her diagnosis.

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:24:42 -0700
From: wpersky@olivermcmillan.com
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: MacTavish
Message-ID: <FB98EA2F9B2AD111BF3A00A0C9495D47174C02@SERVER>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi everyone, I'm the ex referred to in the posts put out here by Rosemary
Blascetta. This will probably be my one and only post, but I would like to
say that I appreciate the existence of this group and wish you all the very
best in your experiences with your four footed family members and their
problems with Cushings.

As Rosemary indicated, MacTavish is doing well after having had only a 3
treatment (3 tablets of 250mg of Lysodren) "loading" phase. He reacted
quite quickly and it now appears that a once a week doseage of one 250mg
tablet each 7 to 8 days will be satisfactory. While I did pass along the
"statistics" to Rosemary in a phone conversation, she was unable to write
them down at the time and I will therefore give them now. Based on the
measurement the vet and their lab uses, while a range of 1 to 5 is textbook
normal, the vet, based on her experience with Cushing's dogs, thinks
anything over 21 is evidence of a problem. The lab they use consider
anything over 17 evidence of a problem. MacTavish's post "loading" pre-ACTH
test level was 4.5, after the stim test it went to 12.8. The vet said that
while this is not "textbook" ideal, it is well within the parameters she
looks for based on her experience.

I have also put him on Missing Link and that seems to be improving his skin
and coat. (He had developed a small bald spot above his tail.)

My ex had also expressed a desire of my listing the antibiotic he was put on
when he had a small amount of blood in his stool. The drug was Asulfadine
and it apparently goes under other names as well. It is a sulfa based drug.
It seemed to do the trick.

As my ex also mentioned, I did say that the numerous postings do "clog" up
my email. I did not mean that derogatorily, but simply factually. I
receive my email in a work environment and I receive numerous emails each
day. I found that I simply did not have the time to read all of the
postings and that I was simply deleting them, therefore I have decided to
"desubscribe". Of course I also do this with the knowledge that my ex will
continue to be a part of this group and will pass along any important
information to me. I thank you for your indirect support for MacTavish via
my ex.

With regard to her "CAN'T BELIEVE I LEFT MY DOGS WITH HIM!!!," comment, I'm
sure that is the reaction of a concerned pet owner who doesn't see her much
loved dogs as much as she would like, due to her choice, not mine. As
MacTavish and our other dog Isis have been with me for 12 years I consider
them family members and believe that I take as good as care of them as
possible.

I hope that you will find such news regarding MacTavish encouraging for your
situations. I don't know how long a once a week dosage will work, or what
other complications may arise in the future. My main concern will be
MacTavish's comfort and I will do what is necessary to help maintain it. He
has been a loyal and faithful companion for 12 years and deserves nothing
less. My very best to all of you.

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:37:40 -0300
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Water Intake
Message-ID: <358ECEA4.3CD023AB@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jackie & Family....

We also got Schonus' test results back today....talk about burn out!!
His results are still high and like Sunny...Schonus is getting 1500 mgs
three times a week and then back again in two weeks for another test.

Is there not a limit to how much Lysodren can be given??? We had two
options...to either do another loading phase or give 1500 mgs three
times a week. I took Option #2 as the loading phase would be 3,000 mgs.
daily.

Something just doesn't seem right....the more Lysodren we give....the
higher the counts!! So far Schonus has had one relatively normal ACTH
test but that lasted for one month.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear on the water intake...Schonus'
water intake increases AFTER the Lysodren and then starts to decrease
the day or two before his next maintenance dose.

All I can say right now is I'm tired, feeling defeated but thank God
every day for my Vet!

Linda & Schonus

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:18:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
To: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: anipryl
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.980622211412.5295E-100000@bradley.bradley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

But what were her symtoms of over-suppression? How did you know she was
OD-ing? Psychotic staring, vomiting, diarrhea? Was it very apparent?

Jenny & Sweetie, Tibetan Terrier, 15 mg. Anipryl and the price just
DOUBLED at our pharmacy!

jk@bradley.bradley.edu

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Toni Lantto wrote:

> Penny has been on anipryl for 10 months. She was started at 15 mg and
> then upped to 30 mg when the 15 wasn't doing anything for her. She has
> gained muscle tone back and lost 15lbs since last Sept. when she was
> started on it. She was in dire condition at that time and we were
> considering putting her down then . Anipryl was her savior at that time.
> She has had one bout with the anipryl when she was being supressed too
> much and now is taking 15 mg a day. It was during my Spring break so I
> was here to keep an eye on her when we had to take her off all meds and
> put her on prednisone for a couple of days before we started the anipryl
> at the 15 mg dose. She is running around with the other dogs now and
> going up and down the steps in front of the house. She is playing with
> the younger dogs and has the best life right now that she has had since
> 6 months before her diagnosis.
>

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:43:13 -0500
From: "Chris and Michelle Dauten" <cdauten@planetkc.com>
To: "cushing's list" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Update on Punkin
Message-ID: <01bd9e93$b91b5800$f4a6b0d1@sccsremote.idir.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just wanted to update everyone on Punkin. She's doing much better after her
visit to "Club Med" this weekend. She now has bowel movements that are the
correct shape; meaning that they HAVE a shape! Dr. Cone doesn't want to
lower her dosage of Anipryl at this point as she has been doing so well on
the 30mg dosage. So mom is now cooking chicken and brown rice for Punkin
daily (anyone hungry?!?) and giving her 1/2 c. 4x daily. Seems to be doing
the trick as she looks good and seems to be feeling better.

I'll be gone for the rest of the week to Clearwater Beach for a conference
(I'm a meeting planner) so I won't have access to e-mail but I've asked my
husband Chris to check in and see what's going on. Thanks to everyone for
their advice and support with this latest episode.

Michelle & Punkin the PWC
cdauten@planetkc.com

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:51:25 -0400
From: "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: anipryl
Message-ID: <001a01bd9eae$1c9d2240$4ee60bd0@chesters>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I would also like to know the symptoms of OD-ing on Anipryl. The
information on canine Addisons indicates that it is difficult to detect with
subtle ups and downs -- the symptoms leaving and then reappearing later. My
vet does not think it necessary to retest with Anipryl but from the posts
here, there appears to be reason to worry. I think us fortunate people who
have not had to deal with a major episode would like to be able to recognize
the beginning symptoms so that the big banger could be avoided without
running to the vet everytime the dog sneezed.
chester
-----Original Message-----
From: Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
To: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
<cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: anipryl

>But what were her symtoms of over-suppression? How did you know she was
>OD-ing? Psychotic staring, vomiting, diarrhea? Was it very apparent?
>
>Jenny & Sweetie, Tibetan Terrier, 15 mg. Anipryl and the price just
>DOUBLED at our pharmacy!
>
>jk@bradley.bradley.edu
>
>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Toni Lantto wrote:
>
>> Penny has been on anipryl for 10 months. She was started at 15 mg and
>> then upped to 30 mg when the 15 wasn't doing anything for her. She has
>> gained muscle tone back and lost 15lbs since last Sept. when she was
>> started on it. She was in dire condition at that time and we were
>> considering putting her down then . Anipryl was her savior at that time.
>> She has had one bout with the anipryl when she was being supressed too
>> much and now is taking 15 mg a day. It was during my Spring break so I
>> was here to keep an eye on her when we had to take her off all meds and
>> put her on prednisone for a couple of days before we started the anipryl
>> at the 15 mg dose. She is running around with the other dogs now and
>> going up and down the steps in front of the house. She is playing with
>> the younger dogs and has the best life right now that she has had since
>> 6 months before her diagnosis.
>>
>
>

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:28:25 +0100
From: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: anipryl
Message-ID: <l03020902b1b532b4c995@[206.153.79.71]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Annpryl is a drug that shows it is working by the clinical signs apparent
in the dog and not checked by blood tests. You check to see if the symptoms
are improving or going away to see if the drug is working. Penny's water
consumption decreased and she began losing weight and showe more energy
when the drug showed that it was doing its stuff.
When she was being suppressed too much she was tired, listless, had bouts
of vomiting, diarrhea . The literature with the drug states that vomiting,
diarrheas and anorexia are side effects of the drug.

>I would also like to know the symptoms of OD-ing on Anipryl. The
>information on canine Addisons indicates that it is difficult to detect with
>subtle ups and downs -- the symptoms leaving and then reappearing later. My
>vet does not think it necessary to retest with Anipryl but from the posts
>here, there appears to be reason to worry. I think us fortunate people who
>have not had to deal with a major episode would like to be able to recognize
>the beginning symptoms so that the big banger could be avoided without
>running to the vet everytime the dog sneezed.
>chester
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
>To: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
>Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
><cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
>Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:20 PM
>Subject: Re: anipryl
>
>
>>But what were her symtoms of over-suppression? How did you know she was
>>OD-ing? Psychotic staring, vomiting, diarrhea? Was it very apparent?
>>
>>Jenny & Sweetie, Tibetan Terrier, 15 mg. Anipryl and the price just
>>DOUBLED at our pharmacy!
>>
>>jk@bradley.bradley.edu
>>
>>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Toni Lantto wrote:
>>
>>> Penny has been on anipryl for 10 months. She was started at 15 mg and
>>> then upped to 30 mg when the 15 wasn't doing anything for her. She has
>>> gained muscle tone back and lost 15lbs since last Sept. when she was
>>> started on it. She was in dire condition at that time and we were
>>> considering putting her down then . Anipryl was her savior at that time.
>>> She has had one bout with the anipryl when she was being supressed too
>>> much and now is taking 15 mg a day. It was during my Spring break so I
>>> was here to keep an eye on her when we had to take her off all meds and
>>> put her on prednisone for a couple of days before we started the anipryl
>>> at the 15 mg dose. She is running around with the other dogs now and
>>> going up and down the steps in front of the house. She is playing with
>>> the younger dogs and has the best life right now that she has had since
>>> 6 months before her diagnosis.
>>>
>>
>>

Toni , Brandy at Rainbow Bridge , Bridget, Duffy, Penny, Georgie, Bo, and Gabe.
in Michigan

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:09:28 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Wife Forwarding Messages to Cushings
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980623160928.00b70504@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:27:54 -0500
>From: SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
>Subject: Wife Forwarding Messages to Cushings
>To: siniardj@email.uah.edu
>
> THIS MESSAGE IS FROM RANDY SINIARD (SUNNY's DADDY) ONLY.
>
>
> I am wondering how to stop people believing my wife (Jackie) is
> sending the message when in effect it is I that is expressing my
> opinion and not hers. As I have attempted to explain before because
> of a *glitch* in the software a sender and receiver must have only one
> computer e-mail address and because of where I work we are required to
> have different addresses (due to the large amount of e-mail flowing
> across the servers (there are two one for receiving and one for
> sending).
>
> In future when I send e-mails I will state 'THIS MESSAGE IS FROM RANDY
> (SUNNY's DADDY) ONLY' across the top and bottom to show that the
> information contained in the message is my opinion **only** and not my
> wife's.
>
> Thank you for your compassion and understanding in sparing my wife's
> feelings when I get up on my soapbox. Thank you Randy.
>
> THIS MESSAGE IS FROM RANDY (SUNNY's DADDY) ONLY.
>
>

Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kathleen Richards <krichard@acme.csusb.edu>
To: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: a not-so-quick stats lesson (was Anipryl to Lysodren)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.980623095913.20153B-100000@acme.csusb.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Of course, Ebony was diagnosed at 17 I think....

---
kathleen richards
Program Assistant
Women's Resource & Adult Re-Entry Center (909) 880-7203

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:17:04 -0500
From: Miner <marcia@nortexinfo.net>
To: cushings <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Hello everybody
Message-ID: <358FE310.7662@nortexinfo.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I wanted to report on my Brittany, Springer. At the urging of many
people on this list, I changed vets last Monday 15th. I had been going
to these previous vets since 1992. Over the past several years I grew
to distrust them more and more. There have been other problems with
these vets in the past, but I always overlooked them. WHY? Because they
were the experts, not me. Springer was on the Anipryl 15 mg. I had
called my vet on the 12th and he said I had to complete the medication.
Springer was getting worst, very depressed and panting. I told him.
All he could think about was his vacation. I want to add that I also
had a very sick cat for the last 6 weeks that was a walking skelation.
The vet took blood and said to wait 7-10 days for the results and they
would come in daily. After not hearing from them I called on Sat 20th.
I was told, they would call me back (THEY ALWAYS SAY THIS AND NEVER
DO!!!). Well that broke the straw.

I started calling around Monday and I just asked a simple question,
Do any of the vet(s) in this office ever treat Cushings. I either got a
What? or No. Finally a very nice lady, says to me, yes we have 4 dogs
right now.I was able to be seen that day. We started testing all over
again. I was able to PRY Springers previous results from the past vet.
They did not want to release them etc. I had my husband just sit in the
office until they turned them over. I have spent thousands with these
vets. You know what, MY previuos vet DID NOT complete the testing, he
put Springer on Anipryl and she is NOT Pituatary! If he did complete the
testing, they did not turn them over. The girl told my husband that
this was all they had!

I also want to say that on Wed 17th we took Springer off the
Anipryl and by Sunday she was almost her old self!!! Still drinking
water and panting BUT not depressed. She was doing the Brittany walk
across the yard!!! I know she is not cured, BUT Springer feels better
about herself, she was just so depressed! I have been so upset by all
of this and watching her so closely I forgot about the cat!

I took my cat in with Springer yesterday and they took blood, and
this morning I found out it is his Liver. The other vets screwed with
this for so long (wait and see) and Son Son is now Liver damaged. He
was given shots and medication. This morning I woke up and found him
looking out the window at the birds. He hasn't done this in weeks!!!!!

I also want to add that when my new vet said he would call at 8AM
the next day with the results, he called!!! I am not used to being
treated this nice! The staff also seems to love animals. I know this
sounds strange but I really believe the staff at the other vets hates
animals! No kidding! They are also very rude on the phone when you
call. I am so glad to be away from them.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you really feel you are
getting the wrong information, get another opinion!!!! I know all of my
furkids and when I tell the vets something is wrong and pay good money,
I want results!

Do you know my previous vet still has not returned my call!!!!

Springer just started Lysodrom(Sp) this AM.

All of you guys have been wonderful, if I hadn't found you,
Springer would still be depressed and my cat sicker or dead!!!

You people are a fantastic group full of information!!!!!

Thank you so much to all of you!!!

Marcia Miner and all my Furkids!!!!

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:15:37 -0400
From: "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: anipryl
Message-ID: <000801bd9edb$4ef5cd00$25e60bd0@chesters>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What did you first notice about Penny that made you think about her having a
problem? I am looking for the earliest warning signs. The bouts of
vomiting and diarrhea were they consistent or intermittent? I think that
the people who have already gone through this can really help us avoid the
more severe problems.
chester
-----Original Message-----
From: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
<cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: anipryl

>Annpryl is a drug that shows it is working by the clinical signs apparent
>in the dog and not checked by blood tests. You check to see if the symptoms
>are improving or going away to see if the drug is working. Penny's water
>consumption decreased and she began losing weight and showe more energy
>when the drug showed that it was doing its stuff.
>When she was being suppressed too much she was tired, listless, had bouts
>of vomiting, diarrhea . The literature with the drug states that vomiting,
>diarrheas and anorexia are side effects of the drug.
>
>
>>I would also like to know the symptoms of OD-ing on Anipryl. The
>>information on canine Addisons indicates that it is difficult to detect
with
>>subtle ups and downs -- the symptoms leaving and then reappearing later.
My
>>vet does not think it necessary to retest with Anipryl but from the posts
>>here, there appears to be reason to worry. I think us fortunate people
who
>>have not had to deal with a major episode would like to be able to
recognize
>>the beginning symptoms so that the big banger could be avoided without
>>running to the vet everytime the dog sneezed.
>>chester
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
>>To: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
>>Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>><cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
>>Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:20 PM
>>Subject: Re: anipryl
>>
>>
>>>But what were her symtoms of over-suppression? How did you know she was
>>>OD-ing? Psychotic staring, vomiting, diarrhea? Was it very apparent?
>>>
>>>Jenny & Sweetie, Tibetan Terrier, 15 mg. Anipryl and the price just
>>>DOUBLED at our pharmacy!
>>>
>>>jk@bradley.bradley.edu
>>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Toni Lantto wrote:
>>>
>>>> Penny has been on anipryl for 10 months. She was started at 15 mg and
>>>> then upped to 30 mg when the 15 wasn't doing anything for her. She has
>>>> gained muscle tone back and lost 15lbs since last Sept. when she was
>>>> started on it. She was in dire condition at that time and we were
>>>> considering putting her down then . Anipryl was her savior at that
time.
>>>> She has had one bout with the anipryl when she was being supressed too
>>>> much and now is taking 15 mg a day. It was during my Spring break so I
>>>> was here to keep an eye on her when we had to take her off all meds and
>>>> put her on prednisone for a couple of days before we started the
anipryl
>>>> at the 15 mg dose. She is running around with the other dogs now and
>>>> going up and down the steps in front of the house. She is playing with
>>>> the younger dogs and has the best life right now that she has had since
>>>> 6 months before her diagnosis.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>Toni , Brandy at Rainbow Bridge , Bridget, Duffy, Penny, Georgie, Bo, and
Gabe.
>in Michigan
>
>
>

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:13:17 +0100
From: Toni Lantto <tlantto@freeway.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: anipryl
Message-ID: <358FC60D.5732@freeway.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Penny's sickness then was gradually getting worse- the bm on the floor
in the morning was enough to gag a moose and she threw up about every
other day when we called the vet. We let it go on for about a week to
see if a change in diet would help and when it didn't we knew something
was wrong. We don't usually even wait that long but our regular vet was
out of town on vacation and we couldn't get her in to see someone who
knew her well enough to tell if something was wrong with her. When he
did see her when he got back, he knew just by looking at her that
something was wrong- not her usual wagging tail or running around the
office. It is very obvious when Penny is not feeling well even the least
little bit.

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:00:03 -0300
From: L Boyce <lboyce@warwick.net>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Water Intake
Message-ID: <35902562.5F3FFC96@warwick.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jeri.....

Thanks so much for the wake up call! You made me realize I'm more tired
than defeated!! Just having a hard time understanding all this but just
know I'm back in the saddle again!!

Linda

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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:56:05 -0400
From: Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
To: cushings <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Hello everybody
Message-ID: <35904EA5.BA007D7E@mediaone.net>
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Dear Marcia,
I am so pleased to hear that your search for a new vet has turned out so
well. From what you have said it sure sounds like your old vet was not
doing his job. Years ago I too changed vets, but only after I lost my cat
to "a severe allergic reaction" to her rabies shot, of all things! I have
no proof that my vet did anything wrong, and if he did I'm sure it was not
intentional. But there had been other prior incidents that had me wondering
and the loss of my cat was the "straw that broke the camel's back".
My cushy poo, Boomer, has been on Lysodren maintenance since May 18 and
appears to be doing quite well (based on decrease symptoms and subsequent
ACTH Stim tests). I hope it works well for Springer too.
One thing that I always look for in a vet is one who is willing to answer
all my questions, and believe me I have had a whole bunch of them over the
past several months. All three vets that Boomer sees (GP, internal medicine
specialist, and dermatologist) have been more than willing to answer any
questions or concerns I have had. So, don't hesitate to ask questions,
either through this forum or at your vet. My inquisitiveness has lead to a
greater understanding of this disease and what to expect from it. I by no
means know all there is to know, but I have a level of comfort now that I
never would have had if it hadn't been for my "quest for knowledge".
Keep us posted on Springer's and your kitty's progress.

Miner wrote:

> I wanted to report on my Brittany, Springer. At the urging of many
> people on this list, I changed vets last Monday 15th. <snip>

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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:09:03 -0400
From: Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Anipryl: to test or not to test
Message-ID: <359051AF.928C844A@mediaone.net>
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Hello All!
A number of people have written that their vet has indicated that you don't
need to restest dogs that are taking Anipryl. I am not as familiar with Anipryl
as I am Lysodren since Boomer takes Lysodren, but I though it seemed odd that
there was no need to retest with Anipryl treatment as there is with Lysodren.
So, I did a little research and this is what I found.
Anipryl works by increasing dopamine levels; increased dopamine levels may
decrease ACTH secretion in dog's that have pituitary-dependant Cushings. Lower
ACTH secretion should result in lower cortisone secretion. Lysodren, on the
other hand, works by selectively killing certain layers of the adrenal gland
that produce cortisone. This causes the adrenal gland to produce less
cortisone.
An ACTH stim test is used in conjunction with Lysodren treatment to measure
the level of cortisone in the blood. I still don't understand why an ACTH Stim
test would not be called for with Anipryl treatment, since both medications have
the end result: lower cortisone secretion. The two medications just go about
it in different ways. Can anyone explain this to me?

-- Liza and Boomer(There you go again Mom, asking more questions!)

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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:13:38 -0500
From: Susan West <swok34@swbell.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: HOT Weather
Message-ID: <359052C1.12C4D68F@swbell.net>
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Liza Klosterman wrote:

> Hi Susan,
> Do you live in Florida? Pinettas comment made me think so, because I live in
> Florida and that is exactly what my furkids think! This weather is simply awful!
> They say that there is no relief in sight for us :(
>
> -- Liza and Boomer
>

Liza....

We live in Oklahoma and it's turning to be a pure "hot summer". We moved from Baton
Rouge, Louisiana.......some of these hot, humid days remind me WHY I no longer live
there.
I think we are all getting it this summer.

susan & pinetta

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Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:30:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jenny Kellstedt <jk@bradley.bradley.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: CUSHNOID FRIEND
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.980623205052.5677C-100000@bradley.bradley.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Laura asked for personal anecdotes re progress of dogs on Anipryl. Those
of you who have heard Sweetie's story might wish to switch channels.

My Tibetan Terrier Sweetie, nearly 8 1/2 yrs., has been on Anipryl since
February, though she went off for it for about 3 wks. so my new vet could
evaluate her condition and the drug's efficacy. She started on 15 mg. but
has been down to 10 mg. daily for about 2 mos., since she began losing
weight following a vet-induced diet regimen.

The only set-back I noted was when I gave her her first thyroid pill about
a month ago, and she threw up yellow bile. After a brief hiatus with the
thyroid meds, she resumed taking them with no apparent ill side effects.

I can't say her recovery has been miraculous or outstanding, but I am
contented with her progress. I would like to see her posterior mobility
increased, but for the past two days she has jumped up on the sofa to
sleep, which is something she had not done for months; and she also
nightly jumps up a large number of steps to the bedroom, so she is not
incapacitated. She loves her lengthy, nightly walks, and I no longer have
to carry her part of the way home; in fact, she usually malingers before I
pull her inside. She does not play with her toys as much as she did
pre-Cushings, but she had stopped playing with them prior to Anipryl. I
am pleased with a partial return of her playfulness.

>From the start Anipryl has controlled her water intake and, thus, the many
"accidents" occurring throughout the day and in the middle of the night.
At times I have to encourage her to drink water. One change is that she
will only drink fresh, out-of-the-water-cooler Hinckley & Schmitt water.
She sniffs it and can tell if it has been sitting in her water dish for
any length of time. Her hunger is now controllable, though she certainly
looks forward to her two meals. I give her a bit of sweet potato and/or
green beans/carrots if she seems hungry between meals. She also takes the
litany of vitamins and herbs recommended by our list members. Her liver is
no longer swollen (it was huge) and her coat looks pretty good, not molty
anyway. That constant Cushings panting has abated, although in the heat
it's sometimes hard to differentiate. Sometimes when she is sleeping she
seems to be breathing quickly, stomach walls heaving; and sometimes she
snores.

Her "normal" personality has returned. No more blank stares in the middle
of the night. No growls or meanness. Just Sweetie, with a bit more oomph
to her bark and some amazingly intelligent moves. She kept barking,
barking, barking peevishly at me this a.m. and dumb me finally after 1/2
hr. turned on the air conditioner. With a sigh, she lay down before it and
promptly fell asleep.

Jenny & Sweetie
jk@bradley.bradley.edu

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:05:05 -0700
From: "Rosemary G. Blascetta" <rblascet@pacbell.net>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Odd chewing behavior
Message-ID: <359115A1.4D9@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Has anyone else had this behavior appear in their dogs? Mac is on
Lysodren and Bill has noticed this new behavior for Mac. My
first thought is dental problem or an outlet for his "I want to eat
all the time" attitude, but could it be something else?

Mac is 12, and gets a rawhide chew stick, the pencil thin ones, every
day. He doesn't have other toys to play with, never has, had no interest
in them. He gets a dental check up every 2 years minimum.

"With regard to behavior changes, there has been one. I first thought
it was an isolated incidence, but it seems to have happened a few more
times. Mac wants to chew things. He chewed the corner of a book I left
on the floor, he chewed some paper Austin left on his floor, and last
night he chewed part of a cardboard box, into a bag of bird seed and
part of a cassette tape box (cardboard) that was on the floor in the
office. I still give him chewies at night, but I wonder if the Lysodren
stimulates this behavior. Let me know what you find out. Otherwise he
seems fine."

TTFN Rosemary

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:32:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Odd chewing behavior
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980624103008.3455C-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The first thought off the top of my head was that maybe Mac's gums are
bothering him. Remember, gum infections and gingivitis are not uncommon
in Cushy pups.

Just a thought....

-Leslie

On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Rosemary G. Blascetta wrote:

> Has anyone else had this behavior appear in their dogs? Mac is on
> Lysodren and Bill has noticed this new behavior for Mac. My
> first thought is dental problem or an outlet for his "I want to eat
> all the time" attitude, but could it be something else?

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:12:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Springer's new vet was:Hello everybody
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980624104726.9513A-100000@curly.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marcia-

Congrats to you for switching vets. It sounds like your new vet is
knowledgable, compassionate and responsive. Given how much time you'll
be spending with her, you absolutely have to use someone with whom you
have mutual respect and trust.

Now that you've started Lysodren, know that you need to keep a pretty
close eye on Springer. Don't hesitate to call your new vet whenever
Springer's behavior concerns you. In fact, the leading canine
endocrinology text book instructs vets to contact the owner every day of
the dog's initial Lysodren loading dose!

As for Son Son, I'm so sorry that he's not doing well. But, I'm glad the
new vet caught the problem. Hopefully y'all can work together to give him
a good quality of life.

I'm proud of you for being such a strong advocate for your
babies and I'm awfully glad you're part of our group here.

______________
Leslie
Cushing's Listserv and Web Page Facilitator
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~lolawson/cushings/

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:50:26 -0400
From: "Deal, Gaye" <Gaye.Deal@wl.com>
To: "'cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu'"
<cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: amylase values and additional symptoms
Message-ID: <602B9620D104D2118E0A00805FBBC436199E87@redfox.research.aa.wl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi! This is my first post to the list. I have been lurking about a
month now since my Scottish Terrier, Mac, was diagnosed as borderline
Cushings. I have learned a lot and have a question or two I am hoping
someone can help me with.

A 'brief' background on Mac. He is a 5 1/2 yr old neutered Scottie who
developed allergy like symptoms of paw licking and scratching at 2 1/2
yr. We went though the gamut of allergy testing and shots (for dust
mites and some molds) to no avail for about one year. Then we
systematically controlled his food to determine food allergies. We
finally are seeing a dermatologist/allergist who has determined that Mac
is not allergic to dust mites, molds, etc. He did have skin fungus. He
was on an antifungal for about 8 months which did help with all of his
symptoms including the hair loss until about 6 months ago when he
started throwing up every day. Quit the medication and no more sickness.
He is still on a special diet and receives only fruits and vegetables as
treats.

After all that here are my questions!...We have tested for thyroid,
blood profile, CBC. In May he was tested for Cushings. His urine
cort/creat ratio is 20.045 and his low dose dex. test shows 1.6 after 8
hours. The only other remarkable blood tests are for elevated liver
enzymes and a high amylase reading. Are high amylase values common in
Cushing's patients? Is pancreatitis a common concern? Also, with Mac's
borderline results my vet has advised re-testing in 6 months and not to
treat now. Is there a risk in waiting to treat for Cushing's?

Luckily Mac is a good natured dog. I can live with the bald patches but
I want him to be as comfortable as possible. Sometimes the scratching,
paw licking and biting, and whimpering can really be heartbreaking. He
has the leathery skin I've seen mentioned on list but do any other
Cushing's dogs have these other symptoms too?

I apologize for the length of the post and appreciate ANY guidance that
can be given. Thanks!

Gaye Deal
clinical reporting systems

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:07:45 -0500
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: amylase values and additional symptoms
Message-ID: <9806241307.ZM1462@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Cushings, generally speaking, usually means that the body is suffering from a
number of "out of normal" conditions. As most of us on this list have
discovered, Cushings isn't a standalone disorder, but is usually accompanied by
other problems. For Ivan, it was hypothyroid, followed by spleen problems and
eventually general systemic failure. But we treat as best we can, and love all
we can.

It's amazing how well our little one's take the abuse we put them through. I'd
always assumed that Ivan was just a stoic little dog, but others have indicated
the same. Do they know?

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
Hell hath no fury like root.

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:54:27 EDT
From: DLowder25@aol.com
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Chewing behavior
Message-ID: <60841047.35919fc4@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I've noticed that Mollie Bear was chewing on her foot since taking her
lysodren. She actually keeps the fur quite short. So far no ulcers have
appeared which is amazing since she can really "attack" that foot. It's
generally one particular foot but she has chewed on all of them. Lately
though she has slacked off and I'm not sure why (just like I'm not sure why
she did it to begin with). I tried to make her stop but she has a mind of her
own and it's a VERY stubborn mind. She just looks at me, barks and keeps
gnawing.
Debbie & Mollie Bear

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:29:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Introduction
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980624201542.1129A-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is my introduction post.

Last Friday, I lost my beautiful Border Collie, Meddy. When I
got home from work on Tuesday, he seemed fine. I walked him
and Bishop briefly, brought them into my apartment and let them
lounge around until dinner time. Meddy couldn't get up for dinner.
He had apparently blown a cervical disk, for which there was no
warning (he was such a trooper - perhaps there was pain previously,
but he never showed it). He was a quadrapalegic within 1.5 hours
of the last walk of his short, 8.5 year life. I had to put him down, as
it was clear that he was upset when I left my visits with him and
the terror in his eyes and cries when he tried to get up and leave
with me made it impossible for me to let him go on anymore. He
was completely (and unfortunately) cognitively fine. Even though
there was some chance he could recover, it could be months. Also,
I had Bishop and Meddy was always depressed when I took Bishop
out without him, quietly whimpering at the window, not realizing
that I was doing it for his own good (sometimes he had to be left
behind because he was dysplastic and his hips would be a little
too achey).

I cried and cried all weekend. Now I'm numb. I don't have Meddy's
ashes back yet and now, I'm scared that Bishop is going to die too.
Meddy died at the age of 8 and Bishop only turned 4 in February.
I feel so cheated. I'm a good owner. I've moved Meddy over 4 states,
Bishop over the last two and I've tended to their needs before my own.
And thisis my reward :(

Three months ago I trimmed Bishop's hair down for the summer.
Two weeks ago I was combing him and realized that patches of
skin, with fur attached, were coming off. I also realized that the hair
on his back was growing back very unevenly and the patches
were on those spots. I'm an immunology post-doc and work with some vets,
who can do simple routine things for me without getting into too much
trouble. I scraped the bald spots, shaved them to increase the diameter
a little and scraped some more for demodex detection and fungal culture.
This was before Meddy had the disk disaster.

On the day Meddy died, I spent hours crying at home and then went
to the lab as I didn't know what else to do with myself. The vet tech
who was culturing the fungus for me said it was starting to look
like something was growing on the dermatophyte-selective medium.
I spent my weekend grieving over Meddy and on Monday, I learned
that the fungus was a contaminant and that Bishop might have
Cushing's.

Now I realize there have been symptoms consistent with Cushings over the
last 6 months or so. Bishop is fat. He's getting fatter and fatter.
He's a Border Collie who shouldn't weigh more than 45 lbs. He's
65 lbs and was 60 lbs a few months ago, despite the fact that he
gets 1.5 cups of food a day and plenty of exercise, as any normal
Border Collie would demand. The weight gain has been completely
out of control. I shouldn't have to feed him that little as it is. Meddy
was a much larger Border Collie, but not twice Bishop's size. I had
to keep Meddy lean because he had bad hips that weren't as sore
as long as he was kept lean. I fed him 3 cups of food a day and he
was a calm and gentle dog, far more sedentary than Bishop's hyperactive
self.

Shortly before I had shaved Bishop down for the summer, he had
a nasty case of watery diarrhea. I had him examined by the vets
at work. He had a fever of 106.5 and high protein excretion in
his urine. The protein was never explained - apparently that
sometimes accompanies high fever. No pathogens, bacterial or
parasitic, were detected. He was put on Baytril and recovered.
His blood chemistries were also taken at the time. No cause for
concern (so I thought). His alk phos was slightly above the normal
range (it was 225 with the high end of normal range indicated as
125 on the printout) and his cholesterol was around 100 above the
high end. Also, at the time, X-rays were taken to rule out a blockage
in his GI tract. There were none at all, not even food because the
fever and diarrhea got to him and he was anorexic until he recovered. We
looked at the X-rays again. One kidney looks elongated compared to the
other, although they are not very focused on the X-ray since at the time,
we weren't looking at his kidneys in particular. Fortunately, there was
no sign of enlargement of other internal organs like liver and spleen as of
3 month ago. Both his blood and urine glucose levels were normal
at the time too, as were readings used to determine kidney and
liver function.

For the last few weeks, Bishop limped a little after playing (hind
end). I thought maybe he had damaged a ligament or pulled a
muscle. After all, he's a hyper Border Collie and we play a lot. I
was going to have it checked out soon...

His bald patches now number 5 and there are black spots developing
on the exposed skin. Tomorrow, i'll be taking him back in for a lot
more tests, but he won't be getting ACTH or dexamethasone testing
yet, as I work at a university and for more specialized things, they
won't be able to justify the cost of testing him since it's too
specialized and personal pets (they are there to handle laboratory animal
health). I cannot afford to get him tested directly for Cushing's
until next week, as I'm a post-doc, am not making a lot of money
and just spent a lot on Meddy's tests, hosptialization and cremation
expenses. No, there isn't a firm diagnosis yet.

But it walks like a duck, talks like a duck....

I'm more traumatized than I've ever been in my life. I thought I'd
have both dogs with me for years to come. After all, that's one of
the good things about Border Collies, right? They live an average
lifespan longer than most breeds. I've met several Border Collies
who didn't die until 20. Most of the ones I've met have made it
to at least 14. They are the only constants in my life, as I move
around a lot and figured they'd still be around when I finally found
a "real" job, which would hopefully have been soon. I could afford
to give Meddy new hips, Bishop is only 4 and since I got him from
the president of the then president of the Border Collie Society of
America because I didn't want another dysplastic dog, or risk
getting one with epilepsy, congenital eye disorders, etc. No, I wanted
one from someone who keeps careful records of the lines she
uses, has copies of the stud books, OFA numbers, etc. And after
all that care, Bishop will still die. I've lost one dog at the age of 8
and have another 4 year old that probably will be lucky to make it
that far. And both of these have happened to me over a three day
period.

I can't take it. My gut impulse is to have Bishop put down now.
Losing Meddy was hard enough. It was sudden and unexpected.
He was such a healthy, strong, lean and fit 75 lb Border Collie (yes,
he was a really big guy for a Border Collie). He just had bum hips
and I could have fixed those, had he not also had a bum cervical
disk of unknown cause (my dogs are always supervised and I
know there's never been a traumatic injury to either of them).

I knew I'd be obsessed over Bishop's health when he died, but
now that I have an actual reason for concern, I don't think I can
handle it. He looks so "healthy" sitting there, with most of his
hair still on and with a ball in his mouth, asking me to take him
out to play. But I only want to cry when I look at him and I can't play
ball with him because I'm afraid something awful will happen if I do. And I
just want it to STOP NOW so I can cut my total "worst grief time" in half
by just getting it over with while I'm still crying, not even having gotten
Meddy's ashes back yet. I want to start over. Get over the grief and get
a new dog, a dog I won't have a particular reason to fear will die on me
soon so I can get back to my life of working during the day and enjoying
normal, fun activities with my dog afterwards without worrying that
playing ball or Frisbee is bad for him. I just want all the problems
to go away.

And the worst part is the guilt. No, I know if he's got Cushing's then
he had it last week, before Meddy died. But Meddy was my favorite dog.
I was more bonded to him than dogs before him and while I wish I could
believe otherwise, I doubt I'll ever be that closely bonded to a dog
again. And when Meddy was in the hospital, I was thinking "No, please
don't take Meddy. Why couldn't this have been Bishop?" It's like someone
up there is saying to me, "Hey babe, you asked for it so what are you
complaining about?"

Someone, please tell me that the symptoms that Bishop has had
over the last few months could all point to something else. I
really NEED to believe it could be something else until I've got
a diagnosis.

Stacy, Bishop and Meddy (who is hopefully at the Rainbow Bridge
by now)

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:43:17 -0400
From: Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: amylase values and additional symptoms
Message-ID: <3591AB35.1C86F470@mediaone.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi Gaye,
Welcome to the list. I'm glad you found it, but not glad you have to
be here. I don't really have any answers to your questions except to say
that the risk you take in waiting to treat is that more symptoms will
surface. You didn't say if Mac is exhibiting any of the classic symptoms
other than hair loss: increased eating and drinking, panting, pot belly,
lethargy. I don't think the scratching, paw licking and biting are symptoms
of Cushing's, at least Boomer never had any of those. Those sound more like
what I've heard from dogs with food allergies. Did you ever determine if he
had food allergies? What kind of special diet is he on? Hopefully someone
can help with your other questions.

-- Liza and Boomer(almost 12 yo mini poo, diagnosed 3/98)
Orange Park, FL

Deal, Gaye wrote:

> Hi! This is my first post to the list. I have been lurking about a
> month now since my Scottish Terrier, Mac, was diagnosed as borderline
> Cushings. I have learned a lot and have a question or two I am hoping
> someone can help me with. <snip>
>

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:17:20 -0400
From: Liza Klosterman <gatorpoo@mediaone.net>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <3591B330.8249845F@mediaone.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Stacey,
My heart goes out to you in your time of grief. When it rains it pours,
huh? I know that nothing can bring back your beloved Meddy, but you still have
Bishop! Surely you can't throw in the towel on him now! Why, you're not even
sure that he has Cushing's, and believe it or not, Cushing's is not a death
sentence. Yes, at one time I too thought that it was the end of the world when
I was waiting to find out if Boomer did indeed have Cushing's. The disease is
quite frightening, especially when you hear about those unfortunate pups who
don't live long once diagnosed, but many cushy dogs live normal or near-normal
lives for a long time! There is nothing that says they will only live for a
couple of years. It all depends on the dog: how old he is at the time of
diagnosis, how advanced it is, how well he responds to treatment, and what other
health problems he may have, and how well his owner handles it (the last one is
my opinion). Please don't give up on Bishop before you've started to fight. I
know that it must be even harder for you, having just lost one of your beloved
friends, but try to have faith and hope that things will go well for Bishop.
Remember what you said yourself , "He looks so "healthy" sitting there, with
most of his hair still on and with a ball in his mouth, asking me to take him
out to play." Bishop needs you now, more than he's ever needed you before. You
have to grieve for Meddy, but you have to be strong for Bishop.
As far as the symptoms of Cushing's, certainly weight gain and hair loss are
some. Has Bishop's appetite or thirst increased? Does he pant a lot? Is he
lethargic? I would suggest that you have the ACTH Stim test done as soon as you
can afford to do so. And then take it from there....one day at a time....that's
all you have to do. Don't worry about tomorrw, just think about today and how
to deal with it. Tomorrow will come soon enough. My thoughts and prayers are
with you.

-- Liza and Boomer

Stacy Ferguson wrote:

> This is my introduction post.
>
> Last Friday, I lost my beautiful Border Collie, Meddy. <snip>

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Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:36:09 EDT
From: Danestuff@aol.com
To: sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu, cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <1a550d75.3591c5ab@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Stacy,

My heart is aching for you, it is clear you are in an
almost-unendurable amount of pain. But believe me,
the solution is *not* to rush Bishop to the Rainbow Bridge.

Our dogs are individuals, with their own unique personalities,
and it's quite okay to feel differently about them. And for all the
love and pleasure we derive from them, there is absolutely no
way to escape the pain when we lose them.

Don't try to shorten your grieving, give yourself time to deal
with what you're feeling. Let Bishop help you move through
the grieving process for Meddy -- remember, Bishop is
probably missing Meddy, too.

You will be in my prayers. Please keep sharing your feelings,
it will help you cope.

Jackie

<< Last Friday, I lost my beautiful Border Collie, Meddy. >>

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:01:12 -0700
From: Jean Spradlin-Miller <kmiller@beowulf.mhsl.uab.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <3591F5B8.13A3@beowulf.mhsl.uab.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stacy,

My heart just broke while I was reading about your loss. But please
don't give up on Bishop yet. Nothing is over until the fat lady sings!

I got on this list because, a few months ago, I was sure my CoCo had
Cushings. We ran all the tests, and, thank God, he didn't. He was
still suffering from the hair loss and scaling skin, though. Dr. Weber
had started him on a thyroid medication about a year ago, which helped
for a while, but then stopped. About 12 weeks ago, he decided to try
treating just the skin problem as a staph infection. He prescribed
something called Primos 120 (or Primor 120 -- just like a doctor, I
can't read his writing!). The skin problem inproved, but there was a
wonderful bonus. CoCo started growing very fine dark hair! It's not
real thick yet, but it's real hair, and Mommy is so happy for her pup!

The bottom line is . . . DON'T GIVE UP! Hang in there, and remember:
we're all here supporting and praying for you and Bishop!

Jean and CoCo

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:22:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980625024346.10047A-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Liza Klosterman wrote:

> As far as the symptoms of Cushing's, certainly weight gain and hair loss are
> some. Has Bishop's appetite or thirst increased? Does he pant a lot? Is he
> lethargic? I would suggest that you have the ACTH Stim test done as soon as you

No, Bishop isn't especially hungry or thirsty. He's not urinating any more
than usual (I take him out three times a day and he has no problem waiting
around my schedule and there's no obvious increase in how long each pee
takes- he doesn't mark. Goes all at once when he goes.)

He may be panting more. It's hard to tell with him, since he's usually
your typical hyper Border Collie. I don't think I've ever even gotten a
picture of him NOT panting his entire life :)

He is more lethargic than he was a week ago, but I have no idea how much
that is related to Meddy's death. He certainly hasn't stopped getting WAY
too excited with other people around and jumping and squealing with
delight around them. But he seems a little more bummed out than usual
indoors, which obviously could be a combination of my crying all the
time, my not playing with him when he drops 5 tennis balls at my feet,
or just from his messing having Meddy.

On a positive note, I contacted Bishop's breeder who said that one of
his littermates, who was placed with a working (a.k.a. sheep) home,
had similar hairloss a year ago and looked horrible, although it grew
back and there was no known cause ever found. SHe asked if the bald
patches were along his spine, as that was his pattern. Four of the patches
are on Bishop. THe fifth is about two inches from his spine. SHe also
said that spots show up quickly in BCs with exposed skin with exposure
to sun, scratches, etc. Bert's hair grew back fine, apparently, without
ever having been diagnosed with anything, desptie numerous tests. She
also said that Bishop's dam is "an easy keeper" and stays fit only if
given one cup of food per day. Bihsop was on two until a couple weeks
ago, when I decided that was still too much and he was still too fat.

About the spots. Do the liver spots typically only occur in areas of
hair loss, or do they occur in areas that haven't gone bald yet too?
>From what I can see, the spots have developed pretty spontaneously,
over a couple of days and are only where the bald patches are. The
other areas that are thinning are still white. Since I've taken
Bishop out more often to play a little since Meddy died (to cheer
us both up), it's possible that if sun exposure could have caused
the spots then that's why they've suddenly appeared over only a
few days. I don't doubt that a BC might spot more easily. Every BC
pup I've ever seen has had large polka dots, even in areas of solid
white fur and pink skin, on their bellies. They aren't BLACK though.
Usually brown. The dots all over the insides of their mouths are black.

The woman who bred Bishop keeps up on all the pups in the litter. She
said she'd contact them all to see if they've had similar mystery
bald spots and to find out how much they're fed.

Thanks, Lisa.

Stacy

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:38:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980625033034.10047D-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Danestuff@aol.com wrote:

> almost-unendurable amount of pain. But believe me,
> the solution is *not* to rush Bishop to the Rainbow Bridge.

Don't worry, I won't do that. It's just what I really really feel
like doing but I know when I look at that goof with the tennis
ball in his mouth, seemingly unaware of the problems he's got,
whether he's got Cushing's or not, I couldn't go through with
that.
>
> Don't try to shorten your grieving, give yourself time to deal
> with what you're feeling. Let Bishop help you move through
> the grieving process for Meddy -- remember, Bishop is
> probably missing Meddy, too.

Yes, he is. He keeps pulling Meddy's lead from the hook by my door
in the middle of the night and sleeping with it. When I take him for
walks along the woods, he seems to still think that Meddy is there
and looks for him. I used to let Meddy off for a minute to do his
business (he was definitely more reliable off-lead and could be
counted on to stay where I could see him) and when I'd call him
to come back, Bishop would look alert and peek to see which way
Meddy would be coming from. He's doing that still, even though I've
haven't been calling Meddy. It's so sad that he seems to think
that Meddy is coming home. Then again, sometimes I wish I could think
that too, so maybe that's not a bad thing.

Stacy

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:23:20 -0400
From: "Deal, Gaye" <Gaye.Deal@wl.com>
To: "'cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu'"
<cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: RE: amylase values and additional symptoms
Message-ID: <602B9620D104D2118E0A00805FBBC436199E8C@redfox.research.aa.wl.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Thank you for your responses concerning Mac's borderline diagnosis and
his symptoms!! It seems everyone agrees that with a borderline
diagnosis it is better to wait for definitive results, especially with
the lack of classic Cushing's symptoms (except hair loss).

lethargy. I don't think the scratching, paw licking and biting
are symptoms
of Cushing's, at least Boomer never had any of those. Those
sound more like
what I've heard from dogs with food allergies. Did you ever
determine if he
had food allergies? What kind of special diet is he on?
Hopefully someone
can help with your other questions.

Mac's symptoms do seem to get worse with certain foods. He was on
homemade lamb and rice for almost a year doing OK. Whenever we have
switched to another 'hypoallergenic' prepared food he does seem to do
better for a while. He is now back on fish and potato after a brief two
week period on a new soy based food. When we started the soy food, his
symptoms worsened almost immediately. We persisted for two weeks
thinking it could be another factor but are now back to his fish and
potato. I understand it takes 8-10 weeks to really see results of diet
changes. He only gets vegetables as treats.

My allergist/dermatologist has exhausted possibilities. The Cushing's
test was an outside possibility. With the suggestions of some others on
this list I am going to try to pursue the possibility of an autoimmune
disorder. I am open to any other suggestions as my current vets are at
a loss. I really appreciate all of the help, support, information, and
having this forum to discuss these conditions!! Thanks again,
Gaye Deal
clinical reporting systems

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:38:42 -0500
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>,
cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <9806250938.ZM13759@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

One thing to consider, as someone else has pointed out, is that this may be
another medical condition, such as staph infections or hypothyroid. Spend some
time talking with your vet (broken record, here :-). Hopefully our experience
will give you some knowledge to discuss this.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
Hell hath no fury like root.

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:02:23 -0400
From: "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
To: "muffin" <muffin@esosoft.com>,
"cushings" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <004001bda04a$58c87c40$2ae60bd0@chesters>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01BDA028.BB62EB00"

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I notice that females have higher incidence of cushings and diabetes and =
wonder if Gretle's history is similar to anyone else's history. She had =
developed engorgement of some of her milk glands which at times would =
resolve after going out of season and on three occasions developed =
mastitis. Once the vet biopsied one of the lumps to see if it was a =
tumor but only liquid came out.
Now the point of this is: If the milk tissue is constantly filled =
with fluid would the immune system sense this as a foreign object and =
increase hormone production to decrease the potential inflammation and =
would that over production of steroids cause diabetes to develop or =
require more insulin to overcome the antagonistic effect of the =
steroids, or cause cushings symptoms? I wonder if there has been any =
research on the effect of chronic condition like allergies and tumors, =
etc. and subsequent development of diabetes/cushings and if the =
correction of these problems results in the alleviation of symptoms? I =
have read about the correlation between steroid use and these conditions =
but could the condition be the cause and the steroid use just a =
coincidence? Are Gretle's lumps maintaining her conditions, causes of =
her condition or just benign?
chester

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I notice that females have higher =
incidence of=20
cushings and diabetes and wonder if Gretle's history is similar to =
anyone else's=20
history.  She had developed engorgement of some of her milk glands =
which at=20
times would resolve after going out of season and on three occasions =
developed=20
mastitis.  Once the vet biopsied one of the lumps to see if it was =
a tumor=20
but only liquid came out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>    Now the point of =
this=20
is:   If the milk tissue is constantly filled with fluid would =
the=20
immune system sense this as a foreign object and increase hormone =
production to=20
decrease the potential inflammation and would that over production of =
steroids=20
cause diabetes to develop or require more insulin to overcome the =
antagonistic=20
effect of the steroids, or cause cushings symptoms?   I wonder =
if=20
there has been any research on the effect of chronic condition like =
allergies=20
and tumors, etc. and subsequent development of diabetes/cushings and if =
the=20
correction of these problems results in the alleviation of =
symptoms?  I=20
have read about the correlation between steroid use and these conditions =
but=20
could the condition be the cause and the steroid use just a =
coincidence? =20
Are Gretle's lumps maintaining her conditions, causes of her condition =
or just=20
benign?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>chester</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:42:13 EDT
From: CBABTPC@aol.com
To: chesterb@penn.com, owner-cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu,
muffin@esosoft.com, cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <8eba33a6.35926fd7@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Chester,

You always pose such interesting questions. I'm going to think about this one
for awhile. Targa did suffer from steroid treated allergies for many years.

Anne and Targa

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:49:41 +0000
From: Tom White <trw@virginia.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: MacTavish
Message-ID: <53F225424B@law1.law.virginia.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Rosemary and William,

That's absolutely fantastic news about MacTavish!! We are extremely happy
for you!! The heart is encouraged to hear that this disease can be defeated
so quickly on its own terms.

Many thanks for the info. on the drug Asulfadine concerning blood in
stools. We really appreciate it. We will ask our vet about it to see if it is
something that might help Clea.

Concerning odd chewing behavior: when our dogs started having gum and
teeth problems, they started chewing their blankets into rags. We had their
mouths x-rayed during a routine dental. Teeth were extracted. Growths were
discovered and removed from their mouths (Rosti/benign; Clea/malignant but
totally removed).

We're probably paranoid, but we worry about infections in their mouths
because of other damage these infections can do to the heart and kidneys,
especially in dogs with poor immune systems. They have a dental once a year or
more frequently as needed (including a few days of antibiotic treatment before
and after the procedure). Sometimes they just need a "scraping," and the vet
can do this gently without anesthesia. We maintain healthy gums with CHX-Guard
LA (small dab of gel applied with index finger to the gums), and we brush their
teeth with C.E.T. Forte (doggy toothpaste). Both are beef flavored.

Our chewing problems turned out to be dental problems. Once that was
resolved, the chewing stopped. (They still continue to lick their fore-paws,
however.)

Our very best wishes to you for continued good success with MacTavish's
treatment! Give him a great big hug for us.
Tom, Maria and Clea, Timmy and Little Rosti
trw@virginia.edu

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:34:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980625113038.20966H-100000@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Ditto for Melissa--we misguidedly made her endure years of steroid
treatment for allergies. I don't have any proof or literature to support
my belief, but I'm convinced that this has to be related to her
development of Cushing's.

-Leslie

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 CBABTPC@aol.com
wrote:
> Chester,
>
> You always pose such interesting questions. I'm going to think about this one
> for awhile. Targa did suffer from steroid treated allergies for many years.
>
> Anne and Targa

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:55:34 -0500
From: "Dillon Pyron" <dillon.pyron@amd.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <9806251155.ZM18875@dvorak.amd.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Ivan makes three. All anecdotal evidence, but something that has changed the
way we treat our little ones. Our vet at the time has since changed his
attitudes ("that's just the way we did it, we didn't know any different") and
uses steroids a lot less. Dr. Smith doesn't even talk about them unless it's a
really serious problem.

--
dillon pyron
dillon.pyron@amd.com
Hell hath no fury like root.

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:14:51 EDT
From: hilbro@juno.com (h hilbro)
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <19980625.120715.9983.6.hilbro@juno.com>

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:02:23 -0400 "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>

>I notice that females have higher incidence of cushings and diabetes

According to the literature, diabetes is about 5 times more common in
female dogs with certain breeds at greater statistical risk. But Cushings
shows no sex predisposition.

> Now the point of this is: If the milk tissue is constantly
>filled with fluid would the immune system sense this as a foreign object
and
>increase hormone production to decrease the potential inflammation and
>would that over production of steroids cause diabetes to develop or =
>require more insulin to overcome the antagonistic effect of the =
>steroids, or cause cushings symptoms?

There are a lot of questions wrapped up in there! I'd first speculate
that, put simply, a pituitary lesion implicated in some Cushings could
possibly be related to abnormal lactation, since the pituitary secretes
prolactin. Prolactin, along with estrogen and progesterone, stimulates
milk production. Stress can also increase secretion of prolactin. Some of
the metabolic effects of prolactin do
act like other hormones such as growth hormone. Milk producing ducts
would not normally be significantly inflamed unless some degree of
mastitis were present, and of course, during lactation hormone levels are
high to begin with.

>have read about the correlation between steroid use and these
>conditions =
>but could the condition be the cause and the steroid use just a =
>coincidence? Are Gretle's lumps maintaining her conditions, causes of
>her condition or just benign?

No way for anybody here to come close to answering that. Certainly spay
is recommended in these conditions for various reasons including
hormonal.
Insofar as mastitis may be present, the inflammatory process could very
well be a complicating factor, but many animals get mastitis and don't
succumb to diabetes or Cushings. Any organic stress including hormonal
cycling or erratic or inappropriate lactation causing congestion or
resorption demands could probably be implicated in affecting the course
and management of diabetes and Cushings. Any infection, including
mammary, can significantly affect BG and its control, as can, supposedly,
the administration of antibiotics in treatment of infection. So the best
path, it seems, would be to eliminate and control as many of those
potentially contributing factors as possible.

Hilary

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:06:09 EDT
From: Glimpact@aol.com
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <96dcee5b.35929fa3@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

If anyone wants to see if their usage of specific steroids "might have" listed
as a side effect of possibly inducing Cushing's, you can check the drug's
information in the "Veterinary Drug Handbook" by Donald Plumband published by
Iowa State University Press.

Laura

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:14:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Update on Bishop
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980625183529.17839B-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi All,

I want to thank you all again for your support. It was hard to both
suddenly lose Meddy and hear that Bishop could have Cushings all over
three days and I have been a nervous wreck.

Bishop got a thorough physical through the vets I work with today.
They were definitely concerned when they saw him, particularly since
most of them had seen him only a couple of months ago, with his
long, shiny fur and 5 lbs lighter. They said that he definitely
looked like a possible Cushinoid dog but not to panic yet.

Urinalysis was normal, although cortisol was not included in it. That
test should come back tomorrow, along with a very detailed blood
chemistry. The CBC was mostly normal, although there was a little
concern that his lymphocyte count was about 60% normal. However,
the lymphocytes present appeared to be quite healthy. They asked
if he's been on steroids anytime recently and he has not (I've never
put either of my dogs on steroids, as I'm an immunologist and have
serious concerns about using them for anything but truly critical
circumstances, as was the case when Meddy's disk ruptured last week
and it was clear that the benefits would outweigh the risks.)

On X-ray, there appeared to be no obvious signs of a problem. The
kidneys, which appeared to be of two different sizes in a previous
X-ray, both seems to be of normal size and shape last time. They
shot several films in different positions to be certain. The only
thing noticable was that his spleen seems to be a little larger than
average for a dog his size, but they said that it looked healthy
otherwise and they weren't especially concerned about it.

They cannot explain his slight limp, which they did notice. There
was no sign of joint or bone deterioration and he did not seem to
be tender at any spot when they were pulling, pushing, squeezing
and flexing his legs.

We should get the blood chemistries back tomorrow. As I said in
my introductory post, a previous blood chemistry done on him two
months ago showed a slightly elevated alk phos reading (225) and
higher than normal cholesterol. At the time, they didn't seem important
since they saw him for diarrhea, his coat hadn't been clipped yet (so
his coat was long, silky and shiny) and there were no other symptoms
suggestive of an endocrine problem.

I can't get the special ACTH tests done through work since we could
get into deep doo-doo for that. However, I will be getting them
done next week, regardless of the results of the current tests and
the vets agreed that would be wise, just in case he's just in a
very early stage of Cushing's and changes wouldn't yet be apparent
on X-rays.

They do believe he has some endocrine problem, however. His coat,
even where it hasn't been thinning and is quite full, is growing
back (from the clipping) much drier, brittle and nappier than it
was before he was clipped. It's pretty clear that it generally
looks very different than it did the last time he was seen. They are
suspicious that since most of his symptoms seem to be external
rather than internal, that he may be hypothyroid, and just happens
to have gotten a minor sprain or pull in one of his hind legs -
not unusual for an active dog. They did draw blood for a thyroid
panel too, so we'll see.

In the meantime, I'm going to clip Bishop's coat again tonight and
use the SeboRx shampoo I was given. They weren't too thrilled that
there is no sign of hair growth in his bald spots but since they
are scaling, they want to see if the failure to grow hair
back is the result of the serious scaling going on in those
areas.

Again, thank you all for your responses. A lot of you helped me last
night by giving me alternative possibilities for Bishop's symptoms
and by letting me know that it was not a given that my dog would
necessarily die as soon as many of the sources I've looked at suggested.
I hadn't realized that Cushing's is typically diagnosed after numerous
pathological and irreversible changes had occurred and that the average
life expectancy reflects that. If Bishop has it, clearly it's being
addressed early enough that it would be premature to predict doom
and gloom.

I am quite relieved, at least for now... :)

Stacy and Bishop

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Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:47:34 -0500
From: Susan West <swok34@swbell.net>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <359319D6.687042BC@swbell.net>
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Pinetta's only been on steroids once, about 2 years ago for ?hurting her back. She
went through her first heat at about 9/10 months old and went through a "false
pregnancy"...god forbid if you got near the "football baby". Her tits filled up
with milk and everything; I got her spayed right after that so I don't have any
experience with those questions. Pinetta has chewed her feet. We are pretty much
stuck on RD for the time being (wondering if we are ever going to LOSE weight) and
I've started bathing her in oatmeal shampoo. Really trying to cut down on having to
give her Benedryl (though that seems to do the trick).

I've read that it can take 6 - 8 weeks for the Anipryl to take effect. Pinetta's
on Day 35 and didn't lose/gain anything during that month. The vet told me I'm
still feeding her too much...should be 1 can only of the RD.....and she gets 2/3
can..1/2 cup Pro Plan Lite and about 4 diet dog biscuits..........and is going
around the house licking the carpet for crumbs.....ugggg; this weight thing.
Actually, Pinetta has few of the Cushings "symptoms" and we discovered her cushings
with the "tight skin", hard spots on her back and the weight gain mostly. And were
fortunate to be at a new vet who suspected it right off the bat. She has always
had somewhat of a weight problem since spaying; but last summer gained 4 lbs in
about 4 months......so we tromped around to 3 vets and finally this last one DID
something.

And, I've gotten wordy tonite.......I have read that females have 3 times greater
chance of having Cushings than males (???)....think I read that in the Anipryl
pamplet my vet gave me.

Susan & Pinetta (can't even get to the cat box, mom's got that blocked too)

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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:15:08 -0500
From: Jackie Siniard <siniardj@email.uah.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re[2]: cushings/diabetes possible cause
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980626131508.00b74b10@email.uah.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:42:06 -0500
>From: SINIARD-RC@redstone.army.mil (SINIARD-RC)
>To: siniardj@email.uah.edu
>Subject: Re[2]: cushings/diabetes possible cause
>
>
>
>
> THIS MESSAGE IS FROM RANDY (SUNNY's DADDY) ONLY.
>
> I just wanted to say that our Sunny has been on R/D for about 6 months
>and she has finally started to lose weight. For the first few months we
saw no
>results and actually she gained a few 1/10ths of a pound. So, it may take
>awhile before the lose is noticeable. Our Sunny started at 20.6 pounds in
>weight, she receives 1/4 can and 1/3 cup dry biscuits (both R/D). We also
give
>her treat biscuits and vitamins.
>
> Also, you say that you give Benadryl. While I believe Benadryl has a
>steroid in it. You may want to check. When our Sunny gets problems with her
>sinuses due to allergies we give Chlortrimetron (Spelling?), which is a human
>medicine; of course, the dosage is regulated by our Vet.
>
> We had to block off the litter box too! We have a baby gate across
the
>door. It is high enough off the floor, so Saphir can climb under it (She
won't
>jump over for some reason.) Anyway, we have to block it off -- for some
reason
>Sunny thinks it's a buffet bar! Disgusting! We always know when Saphir has
>gone Sunny lets us know.
>
> It does however seem that Sunny is doing some things that she hasn't
>done in awhile. She talked to me the other day -- not just barking, but
>talking. Then the smile yesterday, boy that really made us notice how she
>changed. Last night, however, she did not beg for her food!? It was an hour
>past her feeding time and we actually had to initiate the feeding -- she
did not
>beg. She however, did eat it all without lifting her head. We take the small
>gifts when they come and smile about them.
>
> I hope Pinetta starts to lose weight soon, and gets better. Sunny
seems
>to be coming along okay.
>
> THIS MESSAGE IS FROM RANDY (SUNNY's DADDY) ONLY.
>
>RANDY
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
>Author: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu at INTERNET
>Date: 6/25/98 10:47 PM
>
>
>Pinetta's only been on steroids once, about 2 years ago for ?hurting her
back.
>She
>went through her first heat at about 9/10 months old and went through a "false
>pregnancy"...god forbid if you got near the "football baby". Her tits
filled up
>with milk and everything; I got her spayed right after that so I don't have any
>experience with those questions. Pinetta has chewed her feet. We are pretty
>much
>stuck on RD for the time being (wondering if we are ever going to LOSE weight)
>and
>I've started bathing her in oatmeal shampoo. Really trying to cut down on
>having to
>give her Benedryl (though that seems to do the trick).
>
> I've read that it can take 6 - 8 weeks for the Anipryl to take effect.
>Pinetta's
>on Day 35 and didn't lose/gain anything during that month. The vet told me I'm
>still feeding her too much...should be 1 can only of the RD.....and she
gets 2/3
>can..1/2 cup Pro Plan Lite and about 4 diet dog biscuits..........and is going
>around the house licking the carpet for crumbs.....ugggg; this weight thing.
>Actually, Pinetta has few of the Cushings "symptoms" and we discovered her
>cushings
>with the "tight skin", hard spots on her back and the weight gain mostly. And
>were
>fortunate to be at a new vet who suspected it right off the bat. She has
>always
>had somewhat of a weight problem since spaying; but last summer gained 4 lbs in
>about 4 months......so we tromped around to 3 vets and finally this last
one DID
>something.
>
>And, I've gotten wordy tonite.......I have read that females have 3 times
>greater
>chance of having Cushings than males (???)....think I read that in the Anipryl
>pamplet my vet gave me.
>
>Susan & Pinetta (can't even get to the cat box, mom's got that blocked too)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Received: from pcgw2.redstone.army.mil ([136.205.157.101]) by
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> (IMA Internet Exchange 3.01 Enterprise) id 0000143E; Thu, 25 Jun 98 22:53:00
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>(CDT)
>Message-Id: <359319D6.687042BC@swbell.net>
>Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:47:34 -0500
>Reply-To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Sender: owner-cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>From: Susan West <swok34@swbell.net>
>To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
>Subject: Re: cushings/diabetes possible cause
>References: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980625113038.20966H-100000@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
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>
>

Love doesn't make the world go 'round: love is what makes the ride
worthwhile. - Franklin Jones

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:50:16 +0000
From: Tom White <trw@virginia.edu>
To: sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu, cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction
Message-ID: <69F57C4214@law1.law.virginia.edu>
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Dear Stacy and Bishop,

We were so sorry to hear of your loss of Meddy. We know it can be so
painful to lose such a dear friend, but perhaps your love for each other will
see you through this awful time in your lives.

Blessings to you both.
Tom, Maria and Clea, Timmy and Little Rosti
trw@virginia.edu

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:14:19 -0400
From: "chester b. smith" <chesterb@penn.com>
To: "cushings" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>,
"Susan West" <swok34@swbell.net>
Subject: susan
Message-ID: <003f01bda10c$b6714d00$1fe60bd0@chesters>
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Gretle is a mini-dachshund who was on steroids once after a back =
operation and also had several false pregnancies. She is 11 years old =
and was just spayed last week. I place some of the problems starting =
with the false pregnancies. I guess the cushings symptoms abate at a =
slower rate when the disease was well established before diagnosis. =
Gretle only had a few symptoms and her symptoms went away fairly quickly =
on the Anipryl. She has diabetes so her water in and out was fairly =
obvious.
chester=20

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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gretle is a mini-dachshund who was =
on steroids=20
once after a back operation and also had several false =
pregnancies.  She is=20
11 years old and was just spayed last week.  I place some of =
the =20
problems starting with the false pregnancies.   I guess the =
cushings=20
symptoms abate at a slower rate when the disease was well established =
before=20
diagnosis.  Gretle only had a few symptoms and her symptoms went =
away=20
fairly quickly on the Anipryl.  She has diabetes so her water in =
and out=20
was fairly obvious.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>chester </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:45:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction (Stacy and Bishop)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980625111238.20966C-100000@moe.cc.utexas.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Stacy-

Certainly the tests will tell, but a four years old is awfully young to
have Cushing's, unless he's being regularly give prednisone. Also, the
adrenal glands and liver typically show enlargement with Cushing's.
Finally, the hairloss associated with Cushing's is typically all over
thinning rather than in patches. I'm no doctor and I'm not there to
actually see what's going on, but I'd bet that it's not Cushing's.

I hope that it's something else that's quickly and easily cured!

Keep us posted. Hugs to you and Bishop. And stop beating yourself up!!
;-)

-Leslie

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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:07:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Stacy Ferguson <sferguso@midway.uchicago.edu>
To: Leslie Lawson <lolawson@uts.cc.utexas.edu>
Cc: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Introduction (Stacy and Bishop)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.980626174534.13640A-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Leslie Lawson wrote:

> Stacy-
> Certainly the tests will tell, but a four years old is awfully young to
> have Cushing's, unless he's being regularly give prednisone. Also, the

No, he's not been given prednisone ever. I'm pretty concerned about its
use for anything but truly critical situations (the first time Meddy got
a steroid was when his disk ruptured, as that was clearly necessary).
Since I'm an immunologist, I have a real fear of steroid use.

> adrenal glands and liver typically show enlargement with Cushing's.
> Finally, the hairloss associated with Cushing's is typically all over
> thinning rather than in patches. I'm no doctor and I'm not there to
> actually see what's going on, but I'd bet that it's not Cushing's.

Well, he's definitely thinning all over the back. His chest hair is
growing fine, as is the hair on his abdomen and tail, although the
tail hair is rather dry and nappy. (More further on).

>
> I hope that it's something else that's quickly and easily cured!
>
> Keep us posted. Hugs to you and Bishop. And stop beating yourself up!!
> ;-)

Thanks Leslie. Here's an update. Since I could get lots of tests done at
work through the vets I work with, Bishop got a very complete physical
yesterday. We haven't done the ACTH or dex tests yet, but I'll be
scheduling that soon, just in case.

Three vets and a few vet techs worked on him at the same time (great
service :) All the vets thought Bishop looked like a potential Cushinoid
dog. He's gotten a serious barrel shape in the last few months, gained
5 lbs in the last couple of months (he's a 65 lb dog who really should
weigh between 40-45 lbs). It was clear that Bishop's external condition
had changed a lot since they last saw him.

However, fortunately, nothing on the X-ray looked suspicious. Although one
kidney looked elongated relative to the other in a previous X-ray done
when he had a bad case of diarrhea two months ago, the kidneys weren't
looked at that closely at the time as the point of the X-rays was to
look for a GI blockage. They reshot his abdomen from several
positions and fortunately, his kidneys look perfectly healthy (phew!).
Nothing appeared abnormal, although his spleen seemed a little larger
than average for a dog his size. The vets seemed unconcerned about
this.

No explanation was found for his limping. X-rays were normal and when
they pulled, pushed, poked and squeezed, he expressed no pain at all.

His bloodwork came back. To my great relief, the somewhat elevated
alkaline phosphatase reading (225 mg/dl with a normal high being 125)
had dropped to only 38. His cholesterol is still rather high. However,
it also appears that his T4 level is low. His level was 0.9 mcg/dl
with the normal range given as 1.0-4.0. Of course, there is enough
error in readings to put him as low normal, but the low reading is
apparently consistent with the elevated cholesterol level and might
explain his thinning hair, bald patches and apparent failure to
regrow his hair well. They noticed that even of the hair that seems
to be regrowing, it's very dry, kinky and brittle so they do suspect
that there is some underlying endocrine problem going on.

I was advised that to be safe, it would be wise to get the ACTH test
done by my regular vet anyway, at the very least because they know
how devastated I was by Meddy's recent death and if Bishop has
Cushing's, then it's certainly early enough to start trying to fend
off some of the symptoms.

He'll get a more complete thyroid panel done in a few weeks, to see if
the low result is consistent. I was also given a gallon of SeboRx and
told to both clip Bishop down again (so it'll be easier to look at
a new regrowth pattern) and to descale him, since he's scaling so much
at the bald spots that they think it's possible that even if the hair
was regrowing, seborrhea could make it difficult.

Overall, I'm very relieved :) I really do appreciate all your
help, and intend to continue to stay on this list since the disease
is more common than I ever realized and I'd like to learn a lot
more about it (after all, I'll be a dog owner for the rest of my
life :)

Stacy and Bishop

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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:49:25 EDT
From: DLowder25@aol.com
To: CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Cushings cause
Message-ID: <18574a60.35944fa6@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Mollie Bear has never been on steroids and was spayed as a puppy. She's
been disgustingly healthy until a couple years ago. We moved to a dry, high
altitude climate of the west from the humid south. I doubt that has anything
to do with it but that's when she was diagnosed (symptoms within 4 months of
moving). The only medication she's ever been on was that flea medication you
apply to the skin once every 6 weeks. She didn't tolerate a second
application.
I always wondered if Cushings was genetic. (I know the steroid use can
cause it too) Mollie's siblings all died in their puppy years of being hit by
cars so she's fortunate to have been adopted by a person with a fence.
Another blood glucose level tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed for a low
reading (I'd be happy with 250 or even 300: she's definitely insulin
resistant)!
Debbie & Mollie Bear

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Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:43:39 -0000
From: "Scottee Meade" <scottee@huskynet.com>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: susan
Message-ID: <B0002248809@kailua.huskynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi Chester,

Sorry to hear about Gretle. If I understand you correctly, you are
associating at least some of her problems with false pregnancies. As these
are a totally natural state for canine bitches (IMO), I'm curious as to
why.

----------------
Scottee Meade <Scottee@huskynet.com> 'Tee Party Bostons
Canine Behavior Consultant Burke, VA
Halley, 12-1/2 years old Boston terrier, diagnosed 5/97, on Chinese Herbs
----------------

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Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:45:49 -0000
From: "Scottee Meade" <scottee@huskynet.com>
To: <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Cushings cause
Message-ID: <B0002250391@kailua.huskynet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Debbie wrote:

> I always wondered if Cushings was genetic.

I wondered this, too, and after the sire of 2 of my litters (I repeated a
breeding to him, so he sired a total of 8 for me) was diagnosed with
Cushings I asked the internal medicine specialist (boarded) where I work if
I should stop breeding this dog's daughter. He said that as of now there
is no evidence of it being inheritable. He did not feel that I should stop
breeding the progeny of that sire.

The son I have from that sire (for which I have no breeding plans) is now 6
years old and has not shown any evidence of Cushings yet. I would hope
that the owners of his 4 littermates would notify me immediately if one of
them were diagnosed. The daughter is 4, and extremely healthy--just had a
CBC run on her for other reasons and she's OK.

----------------
Scottee Meade <Scottee@huskynet.com> 'Tee Party Bostons
Canine Behavior Consultant Burke, VA
Member, Association of Pet Dog Trainers and Old Dominion Kennel Club
----------------

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Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:09:18 -0500
From: "Chris and Michelle Dauten" <cdauten@planetkc.com>
To: "cushing's list" <cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: re hereditary Cushings
Message-ID: <01bda239$c1e221e0$5b84b0d1@sccsremote.idir.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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I spoke with my breeder regarding the possibility of Cushings in the line
and it did show up in the same line that Punkin was bred out of. Not sure
why...

I'm going to see Punkin 4th of July weekend!!! She's doing great right now,
back on regular food, looks good according to my parents, etc. I called
when I was in Florida to check on her and was so happy to get a good report;
sometimes those are hard to come by!

Michelle & Punkin the PWC
cdauten@planetkc.com

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Date: Sun, 28 Jun 98 19:49:14 -0400
From: <loiskos@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Cushing's Disease" <CUSHINGS-PETS@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: LATEST ON DUFFY DOG
Message-ID: <199806282343.SAA15126@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

So much good info here!
Duff just spent five days in boarding -- where his vet is, and where he's
been at least once or twice a year. Very stressful, as you've all
aluded, but very necessary for me to know he's safe and cared for by
those who know his problems. I write out a long description of his
Cushings, and behavior, and medications, etc each time. And provide some
of the fodostuffs that I hide pills in, since he's so darned smart about
chewing between his teeth to split out the meds.
And you're all right: it IS IMPORTANT for me to have some time away.
This was business, and I'm not planning a vacation, but the result to my
psyche was the same.
Duffy's behavior has become much less grouchy. Mellowed, sorta. For a
non-cuddler, he even lays next to me now and then. Either it's the
amytriptiline, or old age. And I'm getting smarter about his urinary
needs, so many fewer puddles to clean.
Duffy was diagnosed 13 months ago, with onset of symptoms probably more
like 15-17 months ago. So here's my tough question: Do any of our
Cushing's communicators have dogs who have been diagnosed longer,
symptomatic longer --- especially if your dogs are older (Duffy is
13-3/4)???

LOIS (& Duffy Dog)
also sweltering in Florida -- but not burning, thank heaven!

----__ListProc__NextPart____CUSHINGS-PETS__digest_40

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:53:05 -0500
From: Sandy Hempe <dogdazed@sprintmail.com>
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Our attempt at boarding
Message-ID: <3596E571.13E7@sprintmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi everyone,

Well, Vincent *flunked* his first boarding test with flying colors! I
left him at the kennel for an hour and he tried to dismantle the cage he
was in. The kennel owner said he was using teeth and claws on the cage
door. He also tore up his bed and spilled his water. She had to move
him to a stronger pen. When I came back he was howling and moaning and
clawing at the pen door. Guess I won't be boarding him after all....

I figured I would just miss my family reunion in July, but a vet tech at
my vet's office offered to take him home with her and let him stay in
her house for the weekend! Sounds too good to be true, but she says she
does that sometimes for dogs with severe separation anxiety who need to
be boarded (I think maybe Vince qualifies.) We're going to do a trial
run the weekend before I leave and see if he can survive without me for
a little while. I'm going to cut my time gone down from 4 days to 2.
Rotten mutt, but he's worth it :)

Sandy and Vincent

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Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:20:21 -0400
From: write2tom@juno.com (Thomas D Johnston)
To: cushings-pets@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Aborted Boarding Plan
Message-ID: <19980628.232024.3350.0.Write2Tom@juno.com>

Here's another boarding story. After a week of planning to board both
Jesse and Uta for two days I chickened out and asked a nurse friend to
come in to feed and medicate them. I was only gone 14 hours and they
were fine. Happy to see me and I them. I had a rare two day week-end
and the three of us spent today watching videos and reading the papers.
By the way for those who can I highly recommend a dog door. We waited
until the carpets were ruined to by the glass panel with dog door which
fits into the track for the sliding glass door. After very little
treat-baiting the girls took to it. Jesse is still slow to exit but Uta
hurls herself through it at such high speeds that I fear she will miss
the flap and run head first into the wall or glass door. This is the
greatest thing we have ever done for ourselves and the dogs.
Health-wise Jesse seems to be doing well on her weekly dosage of 375mg
Lysodren and 10 units of Insulin. We go back in a week for another test
to see if the Lysodren is working.

Tom, Jesse and Uta(zoooooom)